To not understand why people are still having kids?

[Tobythecat]

I understand that the urge to reproduce is very strong, but the future looks incredibly bleak (I'm not talking about just covid, but also climate change). I fear for the future and what sort of quality of life people will have, considering Automation/competition over jobs, climate change issues (food/water shortages, extreme weather). Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them? I wanted children desperately but decided not to because of the above, plus genetic factors.

People mention the war and how people kept having kids, but the threats we face have never been faced before and are multifaceted. Is existing to suffer better than not existing at all?

Christ, I'm only on page 16 but I'd just like to point out that eugenics doesn't work because illness and disability can be caused by spontaneous mutations.

No one, NO ONE is a perfect 50/50 copy of their parents. At conception when the genetic material is copied there can be 100 or more mistakes. This can lead to no notible difference, small physical changes, health problems or in extreme cases like my sons a debilitating syndrome which would cause other fans of eugenics to pop him in a gas chamber.

So you can only breed "perfect" specimens all you want, but spontaneous mutations will still cause "imperfect" humans.

If I held the view that dog ownership, especially overbreeding of dogs, was cruel (which I sort of do) and an unnecessary luxury in times when we should be being more careful about carbon footprint and meat consumption, and I then got myself registered on PugWorld . Com or something (I made that up btw. Don't think it's a real site) and went on ther going on about how wrong it was to have these dogs, how it is cruel, the UNIMAGINABLE suffering etc etc, I would get banned. Why is it acceptable for the op and her ilk to do it here?

If I hated old people and their carers and I did the same thing on a site for carers for the elderly, I would also be shown the door.

Oh my op, you had some aggressive responses? Now, I wonder why that might be? Perhaps because you started this goady thread, airing your poorly educated, revolting views on parents of babies and young children, on a PARENTING forum. Did you think we'd role over and take it? NOPE! If you don't like the responses, you know where the proverbial door is.

Roll*
There*

Whatever else. Scuse typos, I'm on my phone.

Also stunned that the pro eugenics comments have been left up 🤢.

The trouble with such open discussion is that a lot of what is being spouted here (by OP) is hysteria IMO. And there appears to be a lot of people claiming that having a child is the single worse thing you can do for the environment. But I don’t see that backed up by anything. It’s become almost ingrained in the way some people think. Why is it the worse thing we can do? Did I miss all those discussions were everyone agreed to it?

A few people here have said they’ve chosen not to have children for environmental reasons. I hope their decisions are backed up by some actual science and they’re not just being swayed by the hysteria. I fear that isn’t the case as I’m yet to see the science that tells you not to reproduce.

OP, you're looking for an intelligent discussion on why women should stop having children on a forum called 'Mumsnet'.
Yes, you do have some valid points but, c'mon! You're not being very intelligent in where you're actually posting your argument.

Regardless of what kind of future our children will have, it's our duty to educate our children, and show them how to respond to said situations. Yes, the situation is crap now, there were crap situations in the past and there will be crap situations in the future. I'm sure there's a word for that...oh yeah, its called LIFE! I, for one, am going to make the most of it instead of worrying about what MIGHT happen in the future.

So I think my conclusion is that, as ChelseaDaggers has pointed out. It’s batshit crazy that this thread is still here. It makes hysterical discussion the norm and is surely only creating unnecessary anxiety. Hardly a well reasoned, thought provoking thread is it.

So if op gets her wish and everyone ceases having babies as of now...

By 2021 the NICU / maternity would be obsolete. That's a load of nurses that need new jobs.

36000 midwives, 5000 NICU nurses and that's without the thousands of people around them

By 2024 most childcare settings would be inserious trouble. Yes they could expand to after school care but that isn't where the biggest trade is.

40000 registered childminders alone

We'd also not need Health Visitors although i guess they could be kept on till kids were say 11.

They're a mere 7000 of those.

By 2027 that's the infant and nursery teachers or of a job school and primary schools in their entirety by 2031.

That's 216,500 primary school teachers in ENGLAND plus an the dinner ladies, 121s, TAs, catering staff, cleaners.

Not to mention the businesses that supply them with food etc and those who come in to do specialist sessions.

So within a decade that's 300,000 job losses as a low ballpark figure.

So 2031 would see a huge increase in unemployment, something like 23000 school buildings left empty.

Some of those people would retain of course, but there's only a finite number of other jobs.

By 2038 all the secondary schools would be done, 210000 secondary school teachers, 61000 in independent schools, 17000 in specialist schools.

The college's would diversify into adult education but would lose the majority of their students.

Within 20 years we'd have no need for childcare providers, health visitors, midwives, paediatric buses, paediatric nurses, paediatric specialists like SALT, OT etc. No teachers or support staff. Thousands of buildings would become monoliths.
No children's clothes suppliers, no toy makers, no toy shops or children's books.

Meanwhile any arguement to do more to protect our children's world would be pointless.

for my son's generation, what would be the reason to consume less? They literally know they'll be the last ones left.

They're would be no kids taking their jobs so unemployment would eventually settle, but by 2040 it would just be about the hedonism, taking whatever you can whilst you're here.

I think part of what keeps people in check is the thought of future generations. We're bad enough as it is, without they natural check, we'd ruin far more

SleepingStandingUp some good numbers there. You’ve forgotten that by the year 2100 humanity would be wiped out completely. We don’t get to find out if the planet survived, that’s it. Humanity done. Because we all just quit.

Oh my op, you had some aggressive responses? Now, I wonder why that might be? Perhaps because you started this goady thread, airing your poorly educated, revolting views on parents of babies and young children, on a PARENTING forum. Did you think we'd role over and take it? NOPE! If you don't like the responses, you know where the proverbial door is.

Wow, it's really hit a nerve with you hasn't it @ChelseaDaggers?

Mumsnet is more than a parenting site now and the environmental issues with having children are well documented. It is complicated but the truth is all there. But these threads always go this way because it's the last taboo.

Mumsnet is more than a parenting site now and the environmental issues with having children are well documented.
Tell me more about the well documented environmental issues with having children please.

@OliviaBenson

Oh my op, you had some aggressive responses? Now, I wonder why that might be? Perhaps because you started this goady thread, airing your poorly educated, revolting views on parents of babies and young children, on a PARENTING forum. Did you think we'd role over and take it? NOPE! If you don't like the responses, you know where the proverbial door is.

Wow, it's really hit a nerve with you hasn't it @ChelseaDaggers?

Mumsnet is more than a parenting site now and the environmental issues with having children are well documented. It is complicated but the truth is all there. But these threads always go this way because it's the last taboo.

People spouting inflammatory bollocks on a subject I am reasonably educated in, is something I will always challenge, tenaciously if needs be.

Do not attempt to minimise my perfectly logical and fairly well researched arguments with "pooh touched a nerve have we"? It makes you sound like a playground bully. Wow indeed.

Mumsnet is more than a parenting site now and the environmental issues with having children are well documented. It is complicated but the truth is all there. But these threads always go this way because it's the last taboo.

The hysteria. Because someone dared ask a simple question, and that very question has offended, disturbed and upset people in equal parts. So the post must be removed in case it's disturbing content upsets anyone else. 🙄This is the monster that social media has created. Now that's far more depressing than the ops original post.

@ReeseWitherfork

SleepingStandingUp some good numbers there. You’ve forgotten that by the year 2100 humanity would be wiped out completely. We don’t get to find out if the planet survived, that’s it. Humanity done. Because we all just quit.

Probably line before that tbh. Generation last in 2060 would be facing the protect of failing health and the only work force would be their age or older. Yep, am the doctors and caregivers would be "pensioners". The death rate sure to cancers and other serious health issues would increase because they're would be a lack of young people coming into the workforce. Even fairly minor ailments that could be treated would be exacerbated.

It was not a simple question. Deliberately obtuse to call it that. It was a loaded question at best and designed to undermine womens choices over what they would like to do with their own uteri.

Actually the world's population is on track to shrink in a few decades time apparently:

www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/07/200715150444.htm

We've done a lot of shitty things to this planet though. I still think it would be a better place without the human race.

@Kazakaren

Mumsnet is more than a parenting site now and the environmental issues with having children are well documented. It is complicated but the truth is all there. But these threads always go this way because it's the last taboo.

The hysteria. Because someone dared ask a simple question, and that very question has offended, disturbed and upset people in equal parts. So the post must be removed in case it's disturbing content upsets anyone else. 🙄This is the monster that social media has created. Now that's far more depressing than the ops original post.

Yes indeed!

Deliberately obtuse to call it that. It was a loaded question at best and designed to undermine womens choices over what they would like to do with their own uteri.

I disagree. And it's a question I have considered quite a few times myself. The op is not calling for people to be prevented from breeding. She is simply asking for people's thoughts about it.

Come off it OP. Did you honestly think posting this on a parenting website was going to go well? Either you’re not very smart (which I doubt is the case) or you’re a goady fucker (much more likely).

Because someone dared ask a simple question, and that very question has offended, disturbed and upset people in equal parts.
Crikey, is it a simple question? I’m also following a thread called “What do you use your microwave for?” and no one is upset over there.
This question suggests humanity should end. “I don’t see a reason to live” would be disturbing. Ergo, “I don’t see why humanity should still exist” is about 6bn times more disturbing.
People tend to get disturbed by disturbing things.

We've done a lot of shitty things to this planet though. I still think it would be a better place without the human race

I do too. And for those who love to look between the lines for things that simply aren't there, no, I'm not calling for the mass extermination of the human species. But I do think the world would be better off without the destructive forces of humans.

I disagree. And it's a question I have considered quite a few times myself. The op is not calling for people to be prevented from breeding. She is simply asking for people's thoughts about it.

I beg of anyone who has questioned whether to have children to share some actual science! I’m yet to see any. When you share hysterical thoughts, you’re going to get people like ChelseaDaggers pointing out the hysteria. When you back it up with some science and sound logic, it becomes a discussion worth having.

But I do think the world would be better off without the destructive forces of humans.
There is no ‘world’ without humanity. There’s just a useless lump of rock floating through space.

Honestly, how can you think that everything will be fine and work itself out, or do you just not think about it? Children today will face unimagineable suffering in the next 20-30 years, how can you justify it to them?

This is the question the op asked on a site populated mainly by parents or perspective parents. This was a loaded question. Also stating as fact something which most experts (outside insta-land) do not believe will happen. Sorry you disagree. But not a lot we can do about that is there?

@ReeseWitherfork

Because someone dared ask a simple question, and that very question has offended, disturbed and upset people in equal parts. Crikey, is it a simple question? I’m also following a thread called “What do you use your microwave for?” and no one is upset over there. This question suggests humanity should end. “I don’t see a reason to live” would be disturbing. Ergo, “I don’t see why humanity should still exist” is about 6bn times more disturbing. People tend to get disturbed by disturbing things.

You can't deny that in becoming the top species, we've done a lot of bad things, not only to this planet but also to its wildlife (and not to mention, one another). I do think looking at it objectively we're a scourge on this planet, that isn't disturbing it's just the reality. If we changed our ways, this would no longer be true.