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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

340 replies

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 19:21

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

OP posts:
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nostaples · 20/09/2020 21:28

But a lot of the people who work in media city in Salford don't live there. Those on a good salary just get the train in and out since it's only a couple of hours. It's as quick to get to Manchester as it is to get across London.

workit · 20/09/2020 21:28

I live up north and I am surrounded by affluent people...my neighbours for example -she is a solicitor and he is in corporate banking...we live no where near London! We couldn't be any further from London 🤣

My other neighbours own four or five restaurants and a good few rentals.

Marleymoo42 · 20/09/2020 21:30

North traditionally had the industry which gave people that attitude. Think Manchester cotton, Sheffield steel etc. The north/south divide is actually diagnol as south wales had coal mines so falls into that category.

Most of that industry went and northern cities suffered more and for many years unemployment up north was considerably higher. This affected the politics of the north. Not so many Tories in ex coal mining communities which means lots of home counties conservatives see the north as a foreign country.

We have always been very Londoncentric which doesnt help. Posh people go 'up to London' even when living north of the city. If you look at all the major northern cities their railway station, which connects them to the capital, is always on the south side of the city. This means that affluent people always lived on the south side to be more easily connect to london and the posh area of northern cities are nearly always the london side.

Of course there are great jobs and opportunities up north but if you want to get to the very top of some professions you need to be accessible to london. This is particularly true of finance and some parts of law.

Of course there are some pretty hideous areas down south but they ate harder to generalise!

feistyoneyouare · 20/09/2020 21:31

I think we've noticed the same issue. Whether it's middle-class southerners moving to Greater Manchester, or middle-class northerners moving to London/the south, they stay in a relatively middle-class bubble. They rarely venture outside of this to see the extreme deprivation just beyond their safe bubble.

Thank you @SheepandCow you've just put your finger on why this thread is getting my hackles up. This sums it up perfectly.

SheepandCow · 20/09/2020 21:35

Basically re more wealth in your area. Be careful what you wish for.

CharlottesComplicatedWeb · 20/09/2020 21:37

The accent.

jajajao · 20/09/2020 21:37

There are areas of terrible deprivation in the south and real prosperity in the north but, measured on economic indicators like GDP, GDA per capita, median earnings, worklessness, deprivation, etc, there is a pattern that underpins the "North-South divide" even though it is a great simplification.

rosesandcashmere · 20/09/2020 21:39

Don't @ me....
People earn and pay more tax in the south east. The tax bill IS higher in the north. Look the statistics (official) up for yourself. Should it be that way? Maybe: it is what it is. Historically people have survived where suits best.

CoronaIsWatching · 20/09/2020 21:41

@nostaples

But a lot of the people who work in media city in Salford don't live there. Those on a good salary just get the train in and out since it's only a couple of hours. It's as quick to get to Manchester as it is to get across London.
2 hours each way, plus the commute from Piccadilly to Salford and back. I rather doubt it Hmm
bellie710 · 20/09/2020 21:41

We live on a Scottish Island where house prices are some of the highest in Scotland, yet we are classed as a deprived area because we are an island and can't access 'mainland' facilities. We are in no way a deprived area but hey ho can't argue with statistics!

SheepandCow · 20/09/2020 21:42

The London-centric focus has been a problem for Londoners more than anyone else. It's they who have suffered the most.

Like I've said, those most responsible for the London focus don't live permanently or full-time in London. You're more likely to find them in an Oxfordshire village than London outside of work time.

To add insult to injury, deprived Londoners living in overcrowded grotty rentals are told (by someone living in a nice owned house) that they're snobs!

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 21:43

@CharlottesComplicatedWeb

The accent.
Oh this issue as well.

For some reason in business it is more acceptable to have a cockney/Essex accent, even if really strong, than it is to have any other regional accent (particularly Midlands and further north)

Just further compounds the snobbery!

OP posts:
SheepandCow · 20/09/2020 21:46

@feistyoneyouare
One thing's for sure. Ignorance, prejudice, and snobbery knows no north/south divide. It's everywhere.

SheepandCow · 20/09/2020 21:52

@Jules585
Really??? My Essex friends will be pleased to hear that things have changed. They were resigned to forever experiencing mockery of their accent.

Meanwhile pity the person with the standard SE accent. Condemned as a 'snob' as soon as they open their mouth. No matter their financial circumstances or attitude or behaviour. Judged on accent alone. Hence the rise in 'Mockney'. People scared to speak how they do naturally. Shame.

I wonder if animals are as prejudiced. Do different dog breeds have any of this? No, I don't believe they do.

MrsKoala · 20/09/2020 21:59

@SquishySquirmy

Because some people form a very shallow impression of the world beyond their personal bubble from films and TV. So "The North" is an amalgam of Brassed Off and the Full Monty. Whipppets, flat caps, resentment and grinding poverty.

"Scotland" is all angry male red heads, bag pipes, and hills.

"Ireland" is all sexy female red heads, warm pubs and terrorism.

Etc etc...

I am from London and have married 2 northerners (And went to uni in the midlands). Every time I visit the north (Or midlands) I have been told that the south is a shithole that none of them could stomach going too, that we are all like Eastenders and only fools and horses etc - which seems to be what they have based all their opinions on.

I have always found Londoners and those in the SE to be much more pro north than northerners pro south. The only northerners I have met who like the south are the ones who have moved here - and they really are scathing of the north!

I love Leeds btw. It’s one of my favourite places.

Frazzled13 · 20/09/2020 22:00

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

What’s the ethnic diversity of London got to do with anything?

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 22:03

@Frazzled13

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

What’s the ethnic diversity of London got to do with anything?

I said up thread that I meant that in relation to covid cases being linked to areas with higher social deprivation and ethnic minorities.

I knew as soon as I posted it that someone would jump on it but I can’t edit it.

OP posts:
Littleposh · 20/09/2020 22:07

I think it's mostly imagined to an extent, yes people get paid more down south but that's because things cost more so you would imagine (for the most part) that finance works itself out. The north has always been portrayed as dark, grey, poor, grim etc. It's just stereotypes that aren't true. I expect that there are parts of London that are considerably grimmer than some of the most deprived areas of London, or indeed any of the more southern cities

Spiderbaby8 · 20/09/2020 22:07

I kind of experienced the other side, in that people seem to think south=rich, which wasn't my experience. So I get get wrongly judged on my accent/home town. Also most of northern stereotypes I got were from northern people themselves, trying to play up how northern and working class they are, then you find out they had a perfectly nice middle class up bringing Grin

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 22:12

@Littleposh

I think it's mostly imagined to an extent, yes people get paid more down south but that's because things cost more so you would imagine (for the most part) that finance works itself out. The north has always been portrayed as dark, grey, poor, grim etc. It's just stereotypes that aren't true. I expect that there are parts of London that are considerably grimmer than some of the most deprived areas of London, or indeed any of the more southern cities
It’s true. Am just thinking about different cities portrayed in TV and film of past and present.

Birmingham - Peaky Blinders
Manchester - Coronation Street, Waterloo Road?
Newcastle - Geordie Shore, Byker Grove
Liverpool - Brookside
‘Yorkshire’ - Emmerdale
Generic midlands - Line of Duty

Not great representation??

OP posts:
MrsKoala · 20/09/2020 22:18

Hebden Bridge looked lovely in Happy Valley.

SuitedandBooted · 20/09/2020 22:19

I think its basically prejudice against anything you're not familiar with, fueled by stereotypes.

I'm Welsh, - when I first moved to London (university) my flat mates were genuinely shocked that we kept horses growing up, because obviously I must be from "the Valleys", and a dirt poor, coal-dust covered urchin. Meeting my cultured, multi-lingual parents really did their heads in!

RedToothBrush · 20/09/2020 22:20

Posh people go 'up to London' even when living north of the city. If you look at all the major northern cities their railway station, which connects them to the capital, is always on the south side of the city. This means that affluent people always lived on the south side to be more easily connect to london and the posh area of northern cities are nearly always the london side.

What glue are you sniffing?

NellyJames · 20/09/2020 22:22

A huge amount of those who moved up with Media City live near me and get the tram. The BBC actually suggested different parts of Trafford depending on salary levels. Grin

user1471448866 · 20/09/2020 22:22

Dd about to go to Oxbridge from Liverpool. She is a very confident articulate girl but was staggered by the anti Northern bias shown by other applicants at interview stage with a particular antipathy towards Liverpool and certainly had strong reservations about even pursuing her application following her first day of interviews. Interestingly she said that the Eton/ Harrow/Westminster candidates were by far the most welcoming to her as a state school northern girl.