To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

[Jules585]

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

I think people are just putting forward their own situation, posting a nice view and ignoring the real issues of massive swathes of poverty and deprivation to post " dont tell the southerners"
Every single thread

According to the 'State of the North 2019' report, "the UK is more regionally divided than any comparable advanced economy".

A nice view doesnt really negate this.

Many northern towns are rough

So are many southern areas. I travel all over the country for work. One of the places that sticks out as being not very nice was Harlow. There's also the famously 'most deprived area of England', Jaywick.

As a native of Leeds, it sickens me that the myth that the north is entirely poor, working class, uneducated and racist while the south all the opposite continues.

What a load of bollocks! DH isn’t even fully qualified yet, and he’s on more than that.

Stupid MN, that was supposed to be quoting @user1497207191 ‘s post.

@SheepandCow - I find that very true! As a Mancunian I’ve heard the ‘scousers are scum’ and ‘They’ll nick the wheels off your car’ sentiment so many times more than I ever heard any slurs towards them whilst living down south. I think it’s very football related, 4 big teams from 2 big cities that are so close to each other, I guess it was always going to happen.

Someone I worked with years ago said that from Surrey to Edinburgh was only twice the distance from Surrey to Birmingham

Lol. I live in Sussex and when planning a trip to Northumberland, mentioned to a colleague that I wasn't looking forward to the long drive.

My colleague thought I'd be used to long drives, because I'd made so many trips to Milton Keynes recently.

I also knew someone who thought that Norfolk was in the north, and couldn't understand why someone from Cromer didn't have a northern accent.

@frumpety, I've just discovered we don't have Deliveroo where I live. It's a town of approx 20k people, less than 50 miles/an hour by train from London.

I feel proper deprived now.

@user1497207191, I’m not sure where your Chartered Acc figures comes from but we know quite a few of them who live in the NW and commute into Manchester to work for Deloitte or E&Y or KPMG all earning the same as their colleagues in London apart from a nominal weighting allowance. My husband did law not accountancy but he still works in finance and again, when we moved up, there was no drop in his salary. So I have to agree with @WiggleSquiggle.

But I will admit that this is probably a Manchester thing. DH will admit that he couldn’t do his job in Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle. But then the only place in the South he could work would be London. It’s only because he is looking at mostly remote working from now on that we are looking at a move to Hampshire.

Meanwhile pity the person with the standard SE accent. Condemned as a 'snob' as soon as they open their mouth

My Yorkshire born & bred friend thought I was posh, because of my accent.

I grew up on the roughest council estate in Croydon! Mind you, she also thought Croydon was posh until I took for a drive round some of my old haunts on the home from Ikea once.

Her family live in a beautiful rural village a few miles from York, in a big detached house, I grew up in a council flat, but she thought I was posh.

I’m not aware that there is this train of thought

Do you live under a rock??

@NellyJames

But I will admit that this is probably a Manchester thing. DH will admit that he couldn’t do his job in Liverpool, Leeds or Newcastle. But then the only place in the South he could work would be London. It’s only because he is looking at mostly remote working from now on that we are looking at a move to Hampshire.

Surely that’s more about where the offices are based though, as opposed to the fact that if the offices were based there, he’d be paid less? It’d be a similar situation anywhere other than inner and outer London for DH, maybe Bristol at a push.

[quote NellyJames]**@user1497207191, I’m not sure where your Chartered Acc figures comes from but we know quite a few of them who live in the NW and commute into Manchester to work for Deloitte or E&Y or KPMG all earning the same as their colleagues in London apart from a nominal weighting allowance. My husband did law not accountancy but he still works in finance and again, when we moved up, there was no drop in his salary. So I have to agree with @WiggleSquiggle.[/quote]
The London weighting is definitely not 'nominal'!
(source : I work for Big4 up north)

At my grade, and at the grades immediately above and beneath me the difference in salary between Yorkshire and London is c. 30%. I have no reason to think that isn't replicated at other grades too.

The north is seen as poor because people from the north constantly harp on about how their areas don't receive the investment that the south does. By which they mean London of course, because Sussex, Kent, Hampshire and the west country are chronically underfunded too.

Interesting thread.

I think the same is true for many capital cities in many countries.

I don’t understand why people say that the salaries are double in the capital but with half the salary, you can buy a bigger house and have more disposable income.
I looked into moving to another area. The salaries was two thirds of current salary. A house was definitely cheaper though of course, if moving I don’t want to buy a semi detached, I’d like a detached house with a bigger garden.
Bills, flights, holidays, food, clothes, kid’s activities - the costs are the same. We won’t have train fares but will have to run two cars and buy extra fuel instead. We wouldn’t be better off at all but we’d have more space and live close to nature and a small community which I’d like - until my kids leave for uni and instead of living at home, we’d have to pay their accommodation costs too.
What am I missing when doing the maths as everyone keeps saying it would be much cheaper. I feel I’m not seeing something very obvious?

London is traditionally where the hub of business ,Theatres ,Banking and until recently good old Beeb hang out.Thereby most incomes are of a higher level ,to offset the higher living costs in and around the London area. South of London lies the South Coast (where we now live!) Brought up in North London, We now live in Dorset .Our town (Bournemouth) is mostly wealthy or middling .Parts of Dorset can be poorer ,but is less noticeable ,as there are less Tower Blocks /Industry here.Not everyone in London is wealthy though .The last few successive govts are capping HB at an unrealistic rate for poorer people forcing them out of the Capital and into surrounding areas .The North/South divide is a real thing because ovewhelmingly a close proximity to London is seen as a ticket to good jobs /standard of living .The weather up North can be inclement as well!Thus adding to problems moving around and an added pressure on incomes to support higher heating costs .

@user1497207191, I’m not sure where your Chartered Acc figures comes from but we know quite a few of them who live in the NW and commute into Manchester to work for Deloitte or E&Y or KPMG all earning the same as their colleagues in London apart from a nominal weighting allowance. My husband did law not accountancy but he still works in finance and again, when we moved up, there was no drop in his salary. So I have to agree with @WiggleSquiggle.

This isn’t my experience. There is a salary drop of 1/3.

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable, thanks. That’s interesting. Is it the same for Manchester because we know a couple who are both from the SE, went to uni in Manchester and took graduate jobs with Deloitte here over returning to London. Both said there wasn’t much difference in the graduate offer at all. They are mid 40s now and one is still working for the company. Due to his job, my husband actually knows quite a few people our age (late 40s) who work for these firms and this topic has come up before and the impression I’ve always been given is that the difference isn’t enough to make them want to move south.

@Alongcameacat, interesting as your experience backs up that of Receptacles. It’s just not the experience of people we’ve spoken to and not the experience of DH (not an accountant a lawyer but still large bank)
But I accept that anecdote isn’t evidence.

What am I missing when doing the maths as everyone keeps saying it would be much cheaper. I feel I’m not seeing something very obvious

You're not accounting for the upgrade in living standards that you're looking at, ie a detached house with a big garden in a nice location.

If you're genuinely comparing like with like, it is much cheaper, plus there's the fact that you have so much choice on an average budget.

You can spend a lot of money on a house in the north, but you don't have to and in many parts, £100k will give you lots of choice for a nice flat or small terrace in a perfectly pleasant area with amenities in walking distance. In London/SE you'll find nothing at all at this price point.

At £200k, it's a choice of a nice semi in a nice area, vs a grotty studio/tiny flat in a poor area or far from where you need to get to for work etc. Plus there's the fact that many people can't buy at all due to deposits and not meeting income multiples. In 'the north' a couple of teachers, nurses or other averagely paid professional/public sector workers can buy a nice semi detached house. Not a chance in London.

@dottiedodah
The weather up North can be inclement as well!Thus adding to problems moving around and an added pressure on incomes to support higher heating costs .

It can be wet, I’ll give you that but I can’t say there’s a vast difference in heating costs between living in Hertfordshire and living in Cheshire.

Well the South East (exc London) has incomes 20% higher than the North East, even once high housing costs are accounted for. On that basis seeing the North as 'poorer' is kind of correct.

That said, it's reduced massively from a 40% gap in 1990.

Also 'economic inactivity' among working age adults is about 15% higher in the north than the South. (ONS 2020).

Seems there is a divide but it's not as extreme as many imagine.

@BarbaraofSeville, yes, but if you want to live in a desirable area with excellent schools you’re looking at 500-600k for a good sized semi. In some areas, 900k for a semi.
Of course you don’t have to choose these areas. The difference is that there’s a big drop to the less desirable areas. Whereas in the SE that drop is less and means those areas are still not accessible to many.

BarbaraofSeville

The saving is only on the house then? We were looking to move to the coast or nearby. The houses cost more than our current one (semi in the suburbs and not a desirable area at all!).

I grew up in a rural place with no amenities and I absolutely don’t want to live somewhere similar. I think that is the issue we are having. The saving is made on houses but the cheaper houses are not in the areas we want to live. The houses in the areas we’d like to move to are more expensive than where we currently live.