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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask why the North is generally seen as ‘poor’?

340 replies

Jules585 · 20/09/2020 19:21

Discussing the clear north south divide in Covid cases/restrictions with various people and often hear comments like ‘Well there’s a higher risk where there’s higher levels of deprivation/poorer areas etc.’, ‘poorer people and ethnic minorities worst affected’- suggesting in basic terms that there’s more Covid ‘up north’ as it’s poorer.

Now, don’t get me wrong, I know that London is the centre of finance/business etc. and yes, there are a lot of very wealthy Londoners. House prices are obviously extortionate but they’ve been inflated for a number of reasons.

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Having lived in the north, as well as in London, I can honestly say I found parts of London immensely ‘grim’ and deprived, there are millions of people working in low paid, precarious jobs. A huge amount of ethnic diversity. Most people can only dream of owning a house and end up spending an extortionate amount of rent on tiny, sub-standard accommodation.

I know there are various ‘northern’ cities that are often viewed as grim - but my experience even of the most commonly slated cities is that they all have lovely parts, often much closer to countryside and people are able to live a much better standard of living as wages are fairly similar (which they actually are in a lot of sectors and areas of the U.K. now!) and they can actually afford to buy a proper house.

I know for a fact that there isn’t as much of a London vs everywhere else salary divide now - and a lot of people still commute to the major cities as well.

Where does this snobbery come from? Is it as obvious as fact that the Royals are based down south etc etc?

I went to an infamously posh/snobby university and the teasing, snobbery and often insulting attitudes to anyone north of about Oxford was awful and I look back in amazement.

Thoughts? Where does it stem from and why is it still a thing?

OP posts:
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SheepandCow · 21/09/2020 12:46

@netstaller

I think it has a lot to do with accents, as less accents/RP spoken more naturally places like oxford ect and other southern areas so some (idiots) look down on the accents of the north.
Ignorant stereotypes work both ways. People with southern accents are attacked for being 'stuck up'.
NellyJames · 21/09/2020 13:05

You see, I’ve never encountered anyone suggesting that we’re snobs due to our SE accents. Likewise I truly hope my 3 children don’t encounter the opposite when we move back down next year. Although DD (15) has a fairly neutral accent I think that many people would find difficult to place.

Straven123 · 21/09/2020 13:11

I wonder what will happen to London post Covid - fewer commuting in and few tourists - but I expect the Gov won't DARE pour money in to rescue it afier the Brexit vote made it clear the north felt ignored.
Aww diddums - see how it feels London Grin

BarbaraofSeville · 21/09/2020 13:31

but I expect the Gov won't DARE pour money in to rescue it afier the Brexit vote made it clear the north felt ignored

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they do. Look at all the flapping about how office workers WFH is threatening to put all the sandwich and coffee chains out of business.

The difference this time is that the Tory party, or their donors, have too much vested interest in big business, city rents and all that.

They don't care when thousands of ex miners and steelworkers are on the breadline but when a few very rich people might be slightly less rich, they bloody do.

annabel85 · 21/09/2020 14:12

They don't care when thousands of ex miners and steelworkers are on the breadline but when a few very rich people might be slightly less rich, they bloody do

Yeah, when working class industries are destroyed it's 'sink-or-swim Capitalism and market forces. When it affects Tory profits then the state needs to intervene.

MrsKoala · 21/09/2020 15:37

Wrt Londoners erroneously thinking all housing in the north is much much cheaper, I find this attitude from Londoners towards all housing outside London, whether it be north or south. My parents moved from west London (sold a 3 bed Semi for £500k) to Kent and were honestly expecting to get something amazing for £200k. They wanted a 3 bedroom detached house in a quaint village and were slightly outraged that they couldn’t find one. Grin (They ended up with one in a not so quaint village for £400k which needed £40k of work)

OpenlyGayExOlympicFencer · 21/09/2020 15:45

@Straven123

I wonder what will happen to London post Covid - fewer commuting in and few tourists - but I expect the Gov won't DARE pour money in to rescue it afier the Brexit vote made it clear the north felt ignored. Aww diddums - see how it feels London Grin
I think they will but they'll call it something else and try to pretend they aren't. Agree with barbara, that's primarily what the guilt tripping about wfh was aimed at.
NellyJames · 21/09/2020 16:05

@MrsKoala, that’s interesting. My experience isn’t really of Londoners themselves but family, friends and colleagues in Herts and Essex.

dottiedodah · 21/09/2020 17:39

NellyJames Well that is quite possibly true! My Cousin lives in Herts and they get Snow quite often during the winter months .Down here in Bournemouth ,Snow is a rare event that gets all the kids excited! Have been to Chester and loved the City .Didn't seem very poor to me, with the many designer outlets and Jewellery shops on offer! Likewise York and Harrogate as well.Loved the Railway Museum there .(York)

MrsKoala · 21/09/2020 17:44

My neighbours are having similar trouble @NellyJames they are trying to sell and the only people who can afford it are those who’ve sold in London. They have had almost 20 viewings from Londoners wanting to move out, but still be in a town with a selection of good schools and be 5 mins walk from a station which goes to London in 40 mins (which we are) BUT they also want a detached house with land around and not to be overlooked which we most definitely aren’t. In fact they may have had more greenery in Dulwich!

No one who is living and working here already could afford it. It’s crazy and I think massively overpriced. But that’s what it’s been valued at Confused

SurreyHillsGirl · 21/09/2020 18:08

The divide all started with the Norman Conquest, William the Conqueror destroyed many parts of the North. This diminished wealth and was the beginning of centuries of economic disadvantage for the northern side of the country.

Gran22 · 21/09/2020 18:40

Sheffield was previously mentioned as having one of the most affluent constituencies in England. Nick Clegg was the MP for Hallam in the leafy south west of the city.

Across the city there are areas that rank very high on the indices of deprivation, having a difference in life expectancy of 10 years plus. Very cheap housing, much of it in the private rented sector housing very low income and often overcrowded households.

SheepandCow · 21/09/2020 22:55

@Straven123

I wonder what will happen to London post Covid - fewer commuting in and few tourists - but I expect the Gov won't DARE pour money in to rescue it afier the Brexit vote made it clear the north felt ignored. Aww diddums - see how it feels London Grin
See how it feels? Confused I'm quite sure most Londoners would be delighted if they stopped being forced to move away from their family and friends. To just afford a roof over their heads. Perhaps London will no longer have more rough sleepers than anywhere else?

Probably not. What will actually happen is the wealthy will keep a second home London bolt hole or investment property, but move out themselves. Other places will discover be careful what you wish for - when they too get priced out of home and away from their support networks. Welcome to the works of no free childcare from grandparents because they live too far away.

keeprocking · 22/09/2020 11:15

But WHY is there this classic ‘grim up north’ perspective of anything north of the Home Counties really?

Largely because of books, films, TV, it has always been fashionable for Northern writers etc to convey a fairly grim pucture of the North, even in the 1930s books were of the 'trouble at'th'mill variety, popular TV programmes like Coronation Street do little to reverse the picture. The writers tended to come from fairly working class roots, with the exception of the gritty Etonian, George Orwell, and they wrote about what they knew.

Flumpaphone · 22/09/2020 11:58

I think there is poverty and deprivation in both but I think the North is more honest about the problem, makes it more visible and therefore does more to tackle it. Deprivation exists so we know we have to do something to deal with it. Years of chronic under investment in infrastructure, health and education don't help. The Southern based media also love a story of Northern deprivation with their pet example towns always used to illustrate the narrative they have already constructed, Middlesbrough got it in the neck for a long time but they seem to have moved on to Burnley now.

I spent some time in Oxfordshire over the summer and the contrasts really struck me. Obvious real wealth in chocolate box commuter villages with every house done out in identikit Farrow and Ball. The villages were lovely to look at but god they were soulless.

But, if you look not even very hard you see how others live, if you are anywhere near the canal you see people living on tiny boats shored up with tarpaulins just for somewhere to live and make ends meet whilst they try to hold down low paying jobs. Tents pitched on pieces of out of the way waste ground. The lack of social housing bringing over crowding into tiny flats. I also went Brighton last year and have never seen so many homeless people.

So I think there is poverty in the South but the population live with it as long as it is squirreled away tidily and not too close to anyone affluent and people expect the media to be complicit in helping them to ignore it. Being able to pretend it's not there won't make it go away.

SheepandCow · 22/09/2020 12:55

@Flumpaphone
In London it's not even hidden away. Rough sleepers just around the corner from the most expensive streets and overcrowded falling apart HMOs literally next door to million pound plus homes.

Yet still the huge numbers of desperate destitute people don't exist in the public and media narrative about London. I said before, and think I'm right, a major reason for this is northerners (and people from the rest of the UK) who move to London but stay in their middle class bubble world. They add to the problem by pricing Londoners out of home - and to add insult to injury continue to push the myth that everyone in London is rich.

Despite this myth there must be some cognitive dissonance going on. London's desperate poverty isn't hidden. At least not from people who read or watch the news. The daily gang violence blighting deprived communities is very regularly reported on, the beds in sheds desperate housing situation too. London's deprivation is staring everyone else in the face.

lynsey91 · 22/09/2020 13:43

I moved from Essex to the Midlands. I don't live in an expensive or posh area, just a normal mainly working class area.

I think, on the whole, lots of people are better off than those in the south. Certainly anyone earning minimum wage. That is the same across the country, apart from London, and yet house prices are much much cheaper here and rents also are much cheaper. Things like going to the cinema are much cheaper - £12 in Essex £6 here

So many people have caravans or motor homes on their drives. Never saw anywhere near the amount in the south. More disposable income I guess

ReceptacleForTheRespectable · 22/09/2020 14:23

What will actually happen is the wealthy will keep a second home London bolt hole or investment property, but move out themselves. Other places will discover be careful what you wish for - when they too get priced out of home and away from their support networks. Welcome to the works of no free childcare from grandparents because they live too far away.

This has been happening in those northern towns which are seen as 'desirable' by southerners for years tbh. It's not new in the slightest. I can name several places near here where the average young person cannot afford to live, despite growing up there.

SallySeven · 22/09/2020 14:24

It all goes back to 1066.

Redannie118 · 22/09/2020 14:37

I grew up in one of the most Socially deprived areas of Newcastle in the 80s. As awful as it was we lived in small terraces houses with gardens and lots of green spaces for children to play. The moor started at the end of my street and cows often wandered past. I was horrified when i came to london 2 years ago- Kings Cross and the area around was filthy- there were bin bags of rubbish everywhere and more homeless people than i had seen in my life. The entire city seemed grey, soulless and utterly depressing. But that perspective for you. Im sure someone from London wouldnt think of a 80s council estate in Newcastle like my semi- rural childhood home. And im certain theres a lot more to London than the brief snapshot i got of Kings Cross, Piccadilly etc.

StyleandBeautyfail · 22/09/2020 16:04

So many people have caravans or motor homes on their drives. Never saw anywhere near the amount in the south. More disposable income I guess
I dont think its that at all, more to do with snobbery .
Many places have it in the deeds that you cant park vehicles like this or tradesmens vans 😬

Butterer · 22/09/2020 16:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SheepandCow · 22/09/2020 16:21

@Butterer

My friend from London grew up believing that people from Yorkshire dont have any teeth.
I assume your friend has learning difficulties. I hope they're still managing to live a full and happy life.
SheepandCow · 22/09/2020 16:29

@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
It does seem to have spread in recent years. It's been a problem in London for over twenty years so it's not just the young affected there. Shame it's happening elsewhere now too. We really need a better balanced country when it comes to housing (and jobs).

StyleandBeautyfail · 22/09/2020 16:49

[quote SheepandCow]@ReceptacleForTheRespectable
It does seem to have spread in recent years. It's been a problem in London for over twenty years so it's not just the young affected there. Shame it's happening elsewhere now too. We really need a better balanced country when it comes to housing (and jobs).[/quote]
Maybe WFH will help this?
People will move further out and those communities will thrive, with a levelling of house prices?