Rape allegation database

[Roosterbooster99]

Sorry, posting for traffic. To distill, I was raped by a man and I know he has raped other people. All so called Date Rape. I know he has done it to other women before and after what happened to me. But usually when one man rapes a lot of unconnected women, especially after a drink etc the women end up in silos, not knowing he’s done it to others, questioning their own memory, blaming themselves etc, etc, etc.

And I’m sure lots of women, like me, won’t report it. Because it’s her word against his most of the time, and who wants to destroy their lives for 4% convictioncrates.

What I want to do is create an online database. Only visible to staff/administrators, but it would mean if a man was habitually date raping, evidence would build up and flag him.

I’m seriously thinking about s

Not read full thread.

There is already a database for "hot spot" areas and other agencies can feed into it...

@thedancingbear

I guess that could be abused as a few women could gang up on a man and repeatedly accuse him and the jury might think ‘no smoke without fire’ if they were told of previous accusations. Difficult one.

But let's be honest, given all the stats show that false rape allegations are vanishingly rare, this is really not likely, is it? And if the man doesn't have an alibi for at at least one of a 'set' of allegations such as this, I'd be highly inclined to think they were true

Which stats? Genuinely curious. Lots of rapists (are thought to) get away with it because it's an incredibly difficult crime to prove beyond reasonable doubt. I find it very difficult to believe that, despite that, there's a way to confirm whether an allegation is false or not. Maybe that same process could be applied to the accusation itself?

Which stats? Genuinely curious

I think if you were genuinely curious then you'd've googled it. But this'll do you for starters. The widely-quoted figure is 0.6% (or just over one in 200). There are higher and lower estimates around which tends to suggest the 0.6% figure is in the right ballpark.

I find it very difficult to believe that, despite that, there's a way to confirm whether an allegation is false or not.

Proving an allegation is false can be quite easy. For example if the alleged rapist was overseas, or at his 50th birthday party, or dead, or just plain in work, that will often do the trick.

Proving the allegation is 'not false', ie. true, to the criminal standard, is trickier. I trust I don't need to expand though this explains in large part the shit conviction rate.

Sorry, here's the link I meant to post: www.thecut.com/article/false-rape-accusations.html

@thedancingbear

Which stats? Genuinely curious

I think if you were genuinely curious then you'd've googled it. But this'll do you for starters. The widely-quoted figure is 0.6% (or just over one in 200). There are higher and lower estimates around which tends to suggest the 0.6% figure is in the right ballpark.

I find it very difficult to believe that, despite that, there's a way to confirm whether an allegation is false or not.

Proving an allegation is false can be quite easy. For example if the alleged rapist was overseas, or at his 50th birthday party, or dead, or just plain in work, that will often do the trick.

Proving the allegation is 'not false', ie. true, to the criminal standard, is trickier. I trust I don't need to expand though this explains in large part the shit conviction rate.

@thedancingbear

I understand that the actual estimate provided in the article is 5% false. The 0.5% estimate is based upon 95% of rapes not being reported in the first place.

If I understand correctly, the meaning is that at least .5% of rape accusations are false. It doesn't say anything about how many are actually false, let alone how many would stand up in a court of law.

[quote thedancingbear]Sorry, here's the link I meant to post: www.thecut.com/article/false-rape-accusations.html[/quote]
Thanks. I appreciate the follow through, but that's exactly what I thought.
It was taking the amount of confirmed false allegations and reducing it by an estimated amount of rapes that occured but weren't committed.

That's the sort of figure I thought you were mentioning, I was just hoping it would be something more concrete

That's why this is a bad idea. You have allegations which have enough evidence to legally be deemed false and allegations with enough evidence to legally be deemed true. A database which takes the default stance that any unconfirmed allegation is true is about as valid as someone assuming they're all false.

I say this as someone who believes that most of those unconfirmed allegations are probably genuine instances of a crime. I just don't think there should be an adjunct criminal justice system based on my feelings.

^I understand that the actual estimate provided in the article is 5% false. The 0.5% estimate is based upon 95% of rapes not being reported in the first place.

If I understand correctly, the meaning is that at least .5% of rape accusations are false. It doesn't say anything about how many are actually false, let alone how many would stand up in a court of law.^

No, if I'm understanding you correctly, I think that would make 0.25% of instances of 'rape' false allegations. But I'm not sure it matters: isn't the overriding point that, if a woman says she's been raped, she nearly always has?

Your playing with fire 🔥 Report any incident and fight for legal change. Vigilanty rape aligations are destined to ruin innocent lives.

If you are tracking locations this could end up making the sex workers less safe as that data could be hacked and used by attackers/malicious men. Also you wouldn't have a legal basis to process this personal data under GDPR (you have to have a legal basis under Article 6 and also comply with Article 10 as it's criminal data).

Best to maybe campaign to link women up with existing services and promote awareness of these and also improve police training across the country?

Best to maybe campaign to link women up with existing services and promote awareness of these and also improve police training across the country?

But isn't part of the point that there is zero chance of these things happening? If you're going to ask for better resources and less bigoted and incompetent coppers, then you may as well just suggest that men should stop raping people. The net effect is the same. The database suggestion is something that women could do off their own back that might actually make a difference. Or it might be a shitshow for the reasons that some posters have raised, though tbh I suspect not as women rarely falsely allege rape.

@thedancingbear

^I understand that the actual estimate provided in the article is 5% false. The 0.5% estimate is based upon 95% of rapes not being reported in the first place.

If I understand correctly, the meaning is that at least .5% of rape accusations are false. It doesn't say anything about how many are actually false, let alone how many would stand up in a court of law.^

No, if I'm understanding you correctly, I think that would make 0.25% of instances of 'rape' false allegations. But I'm not sure it matters: isn't the overriding point that, if a woman says she's been raped, she nearly always has?

I got that wrong. Taken from the link you posted - 5% are false, only 8%-10% reported therefore the 0.5% figure.

isn't the overriding point that, if a woman says she's been raped, she nearly always has?

That wouldn't be much consolation to the minority of individuals who could be unjustly smeared by such a database.

That wouldn't be much consolation to the minority of individuals who could be unjustly smeared by such a database.

No it wouldn't. But surely at this point you're putting the feelings of men above the rights of women not to be raped? No-one is going to be prosecuted off the back of some bullshit claims on a private database, with no corroborating evidence.

Not having a pop btw - I can tell you're coming from the right place (and the numbers confuse me too!)

@thedancingbear

That wouldn't be much consolation to the minority of individuals who could be unjustly smeared by such a database.

No it wouldn't. But surely at this point you're putting the feelings of men above the rights of women not to be raped? No-one is going to be prosecuted off the back of some bullshit claims on a private database, with no corroborating evidence.

Not having a pop btw - I can tell you're coming from the right place (and the numbers confuse me too!)

The whole point of the database is that it allows for the public to discriminate against someone on the database, without them being subject to standard of evidence that a prosecution would require. It doesn't have to lead to prosecution to have a severe negative effect.

dancingbear I totally agree it's a problem....I just don't think a random database like this would necessarily help. It would have to be done in the right way.....also I'm not agreeing with the people upthread worrying about false allegations, that wouldn't be my worry (as pp have pointed out, false allegations are so rare). My concern would be more misuse/security of the data and what would actually be done with the data (i.e. what would the process be). I would suggest the OP speak to organisations who work in this area and get some input from them which it sounds like she may be planning to do.

The whole point of the database is that it allows for the public to discriminate against someone on the database, without them being subject to standard of evidence that a prosecution would require. It doesn't have to lead to prosecution to have a severe negative effect.

I agree. What we really need to think about here is the menz. They are the real victims, you know.

Being serious, why are so many women invested in protecting men's feelings?

@thedancingbear

That wouldn't be much consolation to the minority of individuals who could be unjustly smeared by such a database.

No it wouldn't. But surely at this point you're putting the feelings of men above the rights of women not to be raped? No-one is going to be prosecuted off the back of some bullshit claims on a private database, with no corroborating evidence.

Not having a pop btw - I can tell you're coming from the right place (and the numbers confuse me too!)

I don't see it like that, I see it as protecting the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".

I'd say the same thing were someone suggesting a hypothetical database of (for example) paedophiles with a 5% false positive error rate.

And as others have said. I do think that there's a problem in how rape accusations are handled and I've read plenty of stuff to suggest that the conviction rate is well below where it should be. But I'm extremely uncomfortable with anything like this which would inevitably, it seems to me, lead to a small number of people being labelled unjustly as rapists.

I don't see it like that, I see it as protecting the principle of "innocent until proven guilty".

I don't agree that that's what would be going on here. People posting on the database would simply be exercising their right of free speech. No-one is going to end up being prosecuted unless there is very good corroborating evidence.

I'd say the same thing were someone suggesting a hypothetical database of (for example) paedophiles with a 5% false positive error rate.

I don't think this is equivalent. Unfortunately, being perceived as a rapist has done precious little harm to the careers of many men (you know the high profile examples). Men make jokes about raping women; the same comments about kids would be unthinkable. Men don't get their houses burnt down because people think they're rapists. In other words, I think you're overstating the level of impact of a (true or false) rape allegation.

And as others have said. I do think that there's a problem in how rape accusations are handled and I've read plenty of stuff to suggest that the conviction rate is well below where it should be. But I'm extremely uncomfortable with anything like this which would inevitably, it seems to me, lead to a small number of people being labelled unjustly as rapists.

I'm not. Omelettes and eggs innit. And it would be a very small number I expect. And if it sees more rapists convicted, and helps keep women safer, I'm happy enough with the trade off. It wouldn't be a perfect solution but here, there will never be one.

@thedancingbear

The whole point of the database is that it allows for the public to discriminate against someone on the database, without them being subject to standard of evidence that a prosecution would require. It doesn't have to lead to prosecution to have a severe negative effect.

I agree. What we really need to think about here is the menz. They are the real victims, you know.

Being serious, why are so many women invested in protecting men's feelings?

Good point. I really should stop caring about the well-being of people who don't have the same genitals as me. How could I be so silly?

@thedancingbear

The whole point of the database is that it allows for the public to discriminate against someone on the database, without them being subject to standard of evidence that a prosecution would require. It doesn't have to lead to prosecution to have a severe negative effect.

I agree. What we really need to think about here is the menz. They are the real victims, you know.

Being serious, why are so many women invested in protecting men's feelings?

As a mother of sons of course I care about the feelings of men. If we all cared more about each other and didn't seek to define someone's character and qualities by their sex and/or gender alone we might just make some positive progress in the world. Just as I don't expect to have my place in the world defined simply by being female neither should we demonise all men and have them subject to potential false allegations simply because they are male. False allegations are the minority but they do happen. Rape conviction rates are woefully low and in my experience many go no where near a court room as the victim is deemed unreliable. They are targeted due to their complex and chaotic lives with addiction and mental health issues. They can be revictimised over and over from childhood through to adulthood never getting justice. Concentrating energy and resources into prevention work and also helping vulnerable victims to get justice and be kept safer seems a much better use of resources.

Sounds the quickest way to get sued.

As a mother of sons of course I care about the feelings of men.

Okay, fine, but you appear more concerned about the rights of your sons not to have their name on a website, than the rights of people's daughters not to get raped. Are those really your priorities?

Concentrating energy and resources into prevention work and also helping vulnerable victims to get justice and be kept safer seems a much better use of resources.

I agree, but that isn't happening, it isn't going to happen any more than men are just going to stop raping. So the database idea, as I understand it, is being proposed as something that can be done without governmental or police intervention (who, let's be honest, are on the side of the rapists here). I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a perfect solution.

Sounds the quickest way to get sued.

Nah. Suing for defamation is at least as self-defeating as trying to achieve a rape prosecution. I speak as someone with professional knowledge of the law of defamation.

@thedancingbear

As a mother of sons of course I care about the feelings of men.

Okay, fine, but you appear more concerned about the rights of your sons not to have their name on a website, than the rights of people's daughters not to get raped. Are those really your priorities?

Concentrating energy and resources into prevention work and also helping vulnerable victims to get justice and be kept safer seems a much better use of resources.

I agree, but that isn't happening, it isn't going to happen any more than men are just going to stop raping. So the database idea, as I understand it, is being proposed as something that can be done without governmental or police intervention (who, let's be honest, are on the side of the rapists here). I don't think anyone is suggesting it's a perfect solution.

Sounds the quickest way to get sued.

Nah. Suing for defamation is at least as self-defeating as trying to achieve a rape prosecution. I speak as someone with professional knowledge of the law of defamation.

I am the mother of an adult daughter too. I also work directly with victims of rape and serious sexual assault every day. It is possible to care deeply about survivors of rape and sexual assault and also want fair and just systems in place to protect everyone. The two are not mutually exclusive. If my daughter was raped I'd be upset and outraged, if my sons were falsely accused of rape I'd be upset and outraged.

If my daughter was raped I'd be upset and outraged, if my sons were falsely accused of rape I'd be upset and outraged.

Fine.

How likely, relatively speaking, are those two possibilities?

Also, how damaging would each of them be?

I'm sorry to put it in these terms but it is an MRA's trick to suggest an equivalence between rape, and false allegations of rape. It is a false equivalence. One is much worse than the other, and the chances of your son's life being destroyed by a false allegation of rape is almost nil.

I understand the principle you are trying to defend here, of course, but principles don't stop women from being raped.