To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

@TheNewLook

Teachers in private schools don't have to have a teaching qualification

Perhaps not legally, but they all do. This is an absurd comment. There was one Classics teacher at my private school 30 years ago without a pgce. He was famous for it. It was much talked about, that’s how rare it was.

Mine are at three different private schools now and every single teacher is fully qualified.

Really, they are not all qualified. I can't speak for your three private schools obviously but I have taught in three private schools throughout my career so far, my husband teaches at one, my brother teaches at one, and I have friends at loads all up and down the country... We've discussed unqualified teachers and I know that the majority (if not all) of the schools we work at have at least one or two unqualified teachers (there were 5 or 6 at one time in my last school!). And many of these are very prestigious well-known schools too.

Granted, a lot of then do go on to get a teaching qualification. But the school hires more unqualified teachers. So there's often one or two at any given time.

Teachers in private schools don't have to have a teaching qualification so it just shows what adifference smaller class sizes makes.

This is nonsense. You don't need a teaching qualification to be a brilliant teacher which is why some private schools get some fantastic staff who are unemployable by state schools.

The private school teachers I know are amongst the hardest working people I know. It's a constant treadmill with hardly any free time with evenings and weekends taken up, obviously this is more for boarding schools. Their teaching standards are constantly being monitored, kids in private schools are just as badly behaved as state school kids and their parents are vicious, they want blood from these teachers in a lot of cases.

I do t ever hear that argument.
But having had 4 kids in both, a good private school can give a fantastic advantage in education, confidence, expectation and connection. There are some pretty mediocre private schools around too but you still benefit from smaller class sizes and greater opportunity. I’d say a top state is not as good as a top private. A mediocre private is way better than a mediocre state.
But it’s not about the quality of teaching, however, as middle and senior schools are taught by subject teachers, I can see why you don’t need to have a teaching qualification - not if you have great subject knowledge and a talent to deliver it.

I voted YANBU. I'm a teacher and I've only ever taught in private schools. I also didn't have a qualification when I first started

I would say I'm a good teacher - I certainly care about my students and work hard, and expect them to work hard too. But in my experience teachers at any school are a mixed bag, just like people in any job in any industry. I agree with lots of previous posts about smaller classes, better facilities, better support etc. Often higher aspirations/expectations, too.

I always think of teaching in a private (or an excellent school of any kind, with clear standards for staff and students) is almost a different skill set from teaching in a challenging school. Not that all state schools are challenging, but if you look at opposite ends of the spectrum there is a huge difference in what I would need to do in a class of 15 kids with few behaviour problems or additional needs and a class of 30ish with significant discipline issues and a number of kids with unidentified or unsupported needs.

Just like I think a different skill set is required to teach small children rather than secondary. I always say I have total respect for primary teachers because I know I would find it really difficult to do their job (I teach secondary, with a preference for Y10 up). Likewise, I have total respect for the teachers who have to manage a large class and deal with all sorts of issues beyond just teaching. The joy of teaching at a really good school is that I can do just that - teach.

It always made me laugh when my ex SIL spoke about the boarding school she works at. She used to board when she was younger. I'd say things like 'do the little ones get homesick?' NO. 'are they allowed to watch tv in the evening?' Yes, pre approved documentaries. 'what do they have for breakfast?' Well a choice, smoked salmon and bagels, smashed avocados on sourdough, continetal...the usual. She was lovely but no better than state school teachers in my opinion. She thought the parents were bonkers too! As an Xmas present one family bought her a massage voucher , but insisted their housekeeper picked her up and dropped her off, she didn't speak a word of English so it was a little stifled lol

I can understand why people want to send their kids to private school for small class sizes, facilitities etc but I absolutely do not get why people send their lids to them to be around more priveleged children.
I went to private school and being around more priveleged kids was a great disadvantage...luckily i have since mixed with people from all walks of life.

I have taught for 23 years and HoY for 16 years, in both State schools and independent schools and I would say in addition to smaller class sizes, better facilities and resources and students having passed an entry exam which means they have reached a certain ability, the teaching in the independent schools I have taught in is better because every teacher has to go above and beyond to ensure students get top results. They would not keep their job otherwise as job dependent on high student grades. In State school's many teachers also do this but not as many and certainly not all, and do not lose their jobs as a consequence. Offering revision classes in lunch break or after school is not something a teacher is paid for, but many do this to improve student results. In an independent school this is more or less mandatory, in state school optional. The level of feedback to improve work, especially at GCSE and A level is also more detailed and frequent in the independent schools I have worked in, across subjects. Another area I have noted difference is if a student is off school at an independent school work will be routinely be sent home after 2 days student absence whereas in state schools this often does not happen unless parents request it and even then usually if over a week absent.

the teaching in the independent schools I have taught in is better because every teacher has to go above and beyond to ensure students get top results.

I don't think this shows the teaching in lessons is any better. Just shows teachers in independent are paid for intervention sessions that state teachers aren't.

I'd also disagree with a culture that prioritises intervention over in lesson delivery. It's why many state schools are moving away from extra lessons.

Herc, I agree that doesn't mean teachers are better, but equally don't assume that the teachers are paid for this kind of stuff in private schools. DH has taught in several private schools and teachers are generally not paid any extra for these things unless they're an actual additional job role. It's just an expectation of the job. In the same way that, if you're a form tutor, you're expected to put in additional hours to show real interest in your students - eg attending an evening concert they're performing in. And as a teacher you're expected to give additional support as needed, and to respond to your students' (or their parents') concerns very promptly. None of this is paid extra - and salaries are often the same as in state. It's more a trade off for the smaller classes, well behaved kids, nice lunches and free use of the school tennis courts, etc.

I choose private prep because of the class sizes, the school grounds, the ethos on healthy living and the curriculum they run. Teaching I assume is standard across the board.

The quality of the teachers doesn't have to be better for the quality of the teaching to be better - if the private school teachers don't have to divert nearly as much of their potential teaching time to crowd control and behaviour issues.

aren't state academies also able to employ unqualified staff if they want to?

but I would expect the quality of teaching staff themselves to not be startlingly different. among the pool of applicants for teaching jobs obviously some teachers of every level of quality and ability will be put off from the idea of teaching in a private school just on principle. others will be attracted to the idea of being able to actually focus on teaching their subject with sufficient resources. occasionally that might mean that the best applicant for a particular subject will choose not to apply to the private school vacancy, so the quality of the final candidate is therefore slightly lower as a result, but occasionally the best potential candidate doesn't have an objection to independent education and is attracted to the better working conditions so I expect it evens out.

There certainly are private schools who mainly exist to keep Tabitha and Tristram away from the chavs. There also are schools that manage out SEN but not all.

My child with suspected ASD/ADHD is at a wonderful independent school. we aren't that wealthy but live in a much smaller house in a much grottier area than we could have afforded if we had gone with the state option (and many of the friends who say they "could never afford it" have houses and mortgages that account for that difference and they certainly could have afforded it if they had chosen differently).

For us the main issue was looking for what was likely to be available for a child with SEN but high academic ability. The excellent outstanding state school we were offered has a reputation for being the best local option for SEN and a large number of kids have it named on their EHCP. The SEN staff were clearly utterly swamped, and with the best will in the world would have had very little time and resource for our child. whereas the private school can provide what he needs. we will have 7 years of cheap or zero holidays and shopping at tesco rather than ocado but we have every right to make that choice.

There are some sweeping statements in this thread! Like all professions there are good and bad teachers and these exist in both private and state sectors. I went to a private school myself and we had very little bad behaviour, an exam to get in and some of the teachers were dire and some were very good. However aspirations were high and on the whole everyone did well.

Our own kids went to state primary which is predominantly white working class and the quality of the education was pretty poor - very low aspirations, teachers spending all their time on the bottom 25% of the class, our kids were bored most of the time, no afterschool clubs etc. we tried everything to gee things up including becoming a governor and getting the kids tutoring.

Reluctantly moved them to the private sector - class size is half and they are all one year group rather than two or three sandwiched in a class. Parents have much higher aspirations and most (not all) take time to read to their kids etc. Much more sport, music etc. More of the kids have hobbies other than watching TV / tiktok. We had online teaching during lockdown whilst our friends at the old school had to make it up for themselves. It annoys me we can't walk the 200m to our village school and have the education for 'free'. Instead our kids travel 30 miles a day and I pay through the nose for it but in our case I think its worth it.

I went to private school. Our facilities weren't better than the one down the road, in fact the state school at the end of my road had more facilities and opportunities as I found out when I got my first job and kids from there were working with me. I had zero friends at school but loads at work. Class sizes differed by about 3 kids.

Other than tons more work and better chances of getting into a top uni there wasn't much difference. They were shit hot on manners and rules and teachers were not to be messed with but it really wasn't a big deal.

I have sent my three DC to both state and private school

Never have I ever heard anyone make a blanket statement that teachers in private school are better than teachers in state school. In fact, when I moved my eldest out of state and into private school, his last state teacher was amazing. It was just such a shame that she often didn’t get a chance to use her fabulous teaching skills because she was dealing with so many discipline / disruption issues that impacted her ability to actually teach.

Actually, thinking about it, it was discipline issues (lack thereof) thst prompted us to move our middle DC out of her state school and in to private a year earlier than we anticipated. Previous to one very disruptive boy who physically attacked my daughter and other girls, did not get excluded, we had been happy at that school and the teachers. We’re talking knocked down, hit, punched, hit with objects. one girl was poked in the eye with a pencil and needed surgery. This boy still did not get excluded. Those who could move their children did so. The teacher herself was so frustrated too and she moved on thereafter too.

As regards the statement that teachers in private don’t even need teaching qualifications, I think you’ll find that pate ta are very interested in the education, qualifications and experience of the teaching staff. Not sure why the OP would think people would fork out so much money and make sacrifices to send their DC to private school for an inferior education.

Ours went to cofe state primary and dd did two years at a cofe secondary. The two big differences between sectors for us were:

Behaviour, boundaries and expectations - there simply was significantly less continual low level and unaddressed disruption or frankly dysfunctional and anti-social behaviour in the independent sector.

And the level of complaining by the staff. In the state schools there was an almost co tinuous level of complaint about how hard they worked, their poor pay, the levels of difficulties they faced, the resources, the government, etc, ad nauseum. If I had ever complained in that way to a group of principal stakeholders I would have be en dismissed.

Question to private school teachers...

Do you think that private school teachers are politicaly to the right on average?

Is there pressure applied to adhere to the traditions/ethos of the school?

Is pastoral care and the nature of the care different to the state sector?

For A level teachers in the private sector is there any pressure to direct pupils to certain universities or courses?

@mids2019 I think that js a separate thread. But I will say private school teachers in my experience keep their political opinions to themselves more than they did at my son's state infant school.

I used to train teachers at a University. Only two of my students (in 12 years) applied to teach in private schools. Hand on heart, they were very mediocre teachers - if not at the lower end of being good teachers. And it is certainly true to say that private schools are not obligated to employ trained teachers. So at least the two I knew of, had been trained. They a-plied on their own admission, because they knew that it was an easier job in a private school. (In general because of more motivated kids (or fewer de-motivated kids- and smaller classes).

@mids2019

Question to private school teachers...

Do you think that private school teachers are politicaly to the right on average?

Is there pressure applied to adhere to the traditions/ethos of the school?

Is pastoral care and the nature of the care different to the state sector?

For A level teachers in the private sector is there any pressure to direct pupils to certain universities or courses?

Yes I do think more private school teachers are politically to the right. More so in the more traditional schools. In my first school I felt I couldn't 'admit' I am very much left wing. But in my current school I felt okay telling my department of been our canvassing for my Labour MP.

Yes there is pressure to adhere to traditions/ethos but I would assume you'd get that on any school.

The pastoral care I've come across has mostly been outstanding but fewer pupils = smaller form groups so in many ways easier. I really love the House system in a number of more traditional private schools (lots of houses and s physical house where they spend yhei time between lessons). SEN provision better in the state sector in my experience though.

Re universities... In my experience the pressure has come from the parents not the school, but the school certainly encourages more academic courses / universities. IME it is quite student led though.

Obviously I've only got a small snapshot. The independent sector has huge variety in it and schools vary massively. These are my experiences of quite well known selective private schools though.

@BestBeforeddmmyy

I used to train teachers at a University. Only two of my students (in 12 years) applied to teach in private schools. Hand on heart, they were very mediocre teachers - if not at the lower end of being good teachers. And it is certainly true to say that private schools are not obligated to employ trained teachers. So at least the two I knew of, had been trained. They a-plied on their own admission, because they knew that it was an easier job in a private school. (In general because of more motivated kids (or fewer de-motivated kids- and smaller classes).

I presume you mean as NQTs, straight from pgce rather than across their whole careers? To add a different perspective, I was the only one from my pgce cohort that did my NAT year in s private school but fast forward 10 years and more than half no longer teach, and the majority of the rest of us are in independent schools, either Usk or abroad. Only 2 or 3 are still working in state schools.

Honestly op most people I know have said the reasons you listed above. Although I would say the teachers are able to do their best because they're not constantly managing behaviour.

Also the facilities at a private school are so much better.

@bemusedmoose

I went to private school. Our facilities weren't better than the one down the road, in fact the state school at the end of my road had more facilities and opportunities as I found out when I got my first job and kids from there were working with me. I had zero friends at school but loads at work. Class sizes differed by about 3 kids.

Other than tons more work and better chances of getting into a top uni there wasn't much difference. They were shit hot on manners and rules and teachers were not to be messed with but it really wasn't a big deal.

Even the things you have mentioned are important though like manners & even the opportunity to get into a top uni. It must be nice to have that head start. Rules also is a big deal.