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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

706 replies

Caitlin555 · 18/09/2020 21:26

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

OP posts:
timeforanew · 19/09/2020 14:48

We are just outside the M25, and ethnical diversity in state primary is nonexistent. One school had 58 kids from one ethnical /language group in reception 2 years ago (not english language, 60 kids all in all), 2 are exclusively white, one 90% white, average income above £80k. One catholic, white, £80k and above income, one parent SAHP. Very few black children at all.
Independents have about the same household income as the 2 good primary schools, but are ethnically more diverse.
it really depends on where you live wether there is any kind of diversity in the state sector.,

larrygrylls · 19/09/2020 15:01

Marchitect,

In terms of your children's school, it sounds like they are doing a lot to fulfil their charitable obligations. That is great.

As I said, some are doing a lot of this and it is the direction of travel. Far too many do far too little though.

Banyantree1990 · 19/09/2020 15:07

Never heard that said about private school - it’s usually the smaller classes, resources and fact they can kick kids out if they’re a nightmare rather than be inclusive the way state schools have to be.
They can also be academically selective if they choose. One near us is ‘famed’ for the letter some families get at the end of year 7 kicking their little
Darlings out for not being able to show they’ll be able to get the GCSE grades that the school
Is renowned for. They could give a shiny shit about rounded, happy kids - it’s all about the league tables for them.

Banyantree1990 · 19/09/2020 15:13

‘he hate aimed at private schools and people who choose private over state in MN is just embarrassing. So much for MN being middle class. It seems to be full of the angry working class’

I’m more your angry MC who thinks that the inequality between private ( which we can afford but don’t do) and state school is growing and not something that benefits our society or country.
I don’t ‘hate’ private schools but I do think that their charitable status is a fucking joke and should be taken away, and that a lot more money needs to be put into education for state schools and programmes for the majority of children in the U.K.

larrygrylls · 19/09/2020 15:20

Marchitect and Hopping

'What I can tell you is at one of our daughters schools parents were unhappy about one teacher. The parents grouped together with their complaints. Within a month not only was the teacher removed but a new permanent teacher in place. This is reflective of the awareness private schools have of the business they opperate within, i suspect a state school would not react in quite the same way.'

'It was more about a lack of discipline leading to a few incidents in class, very little homework being set, even less marked and the dc in that class becoming very disengaged in that subject
When parents pay directly for education they can and do complain loudly when they don’t feel they are getting what they pay for. I don’t think the teacher was exactly marched off the premises but it was suggested she was more suited to HE or Academia than teaching 11-16 year olds'

These two posts illustrate the fact that parents know exactly how a teacher should teach (generally, because they feel that they know schools as they went to one). No one will admit (even to themselves) to being 'that parent' that teachers dread, but they do exist and, I would say, constitute around 15% of private school parents.

How many people would decide that a doctor at a hospital was not working out as they disagreed on the drug regime to their previous doctor (or to what they had looked up on the internet)? I suspect not that many.

I am not saying that parents and pupils should not have a voice. Often, they are the canary in the coal mine who alert the SMT/SLT to a bad teacher. However, in both the above examples, it sounds like the schools weakly capitulated to a group of hectoring parents without giving a potentially excellent teacher the chance to improve.

It is also the case that parents think they know what they want from a school but often don't. In addition different teachers suit different pupils. I have seen very well educated teachers struggle with a rowdy Year 9 but give inspirational A level classes to Oxbridge candidates.

Generally parents have relatively few points of reference as to how good a teacher is: what their children tell them, the homework and marking and grades. They thus (on average) tend to like teachers with perfectly controlled classes who give out a lot of handouts and prep.

They are totally unaware of different teaching styles and, in fact, how little difference homework actually makes (research has shown it to be of zero benefit at primary and slightly positive benefit even at secondary, far lower than many other educational interventions). A well controlled classroom, again, is important, but a classroom where you can hear a pin drop is not always the most beneficial to long term effective learning.

Finally, there is often a compromise between teaching for the best grade and the best teaching in terms of genuine subject knowledge. Grades (up to GCSE) are gained, for all but the strongest candidates, by checklists (how to answer a 3 mark calculation question, the marking points for writing up an experiment etc). It is an open question as to whether parents would favour better grades over a better general education or vice versa. There are advantages to both.

In conclusion, although I do think that feedback from pupils and parents is important in assessing teaching, it is merely one input in how teachers should be judged. Fast and easy learning is not necessarily high quality learning but it is the type that most parents like the most.

niceday · 19/09/2020 15:28

I don't get these threads.
Over 90% of children attend state schools and here we pretend the only difference between the schools is whether they are state or private Hmm
There's more variations among the state schools than between well run state and private. (And the private ones are not homogenous either)

Shimy · 19/09/2020 15:43

What is evident is that neither private nor state offer perfect diversity, some posters want to argue to death that there is no diversity in the private sector and in the state diversity is perfect. I agree more and resources, financial and otherwise are desperately needed in the state sector. If state schools were better invested by government, (not by private school parents as some imagine), all other factors will start to shift. No need to be sharp elbowed buying houses in a ‘certain area’ for the much coveted school. This will bring down house prices in those areas accordingly. Private schools will be much less attractive.

There will always be those who opt for private education but it will be an insignificant number. Not all of us privately educating are from ‘monied’ families with countryside homes etc etc plenty aren’t inspite of what keeps being spouted on MN, infact I’d add that most of the independent school parents on MN are not from those backgrounds at all.

Last but not the least is the weird view, that if you’re privately educated, you must not know how the other half live. My family don’t all send their dc to private schools and we don’t all belong to the same income bracket. We have a wide spectrum of income including family living abroad in 3rd world countries. My dc know more about poverty than some of the self righteous posters on here bleating on about economic diversity.

Wherearemymarbles · 19/09/2020 15:47

I dont think teachers are better in private.

But the big selling point for private -choice.
Our son passed exams for 4 schools and we chose the best one for him.

However of his friends at primary only 4 got their first choice, most got 2nd or 3rd and some didnt get any of their choices. As a result some of his old friends are miserable and truly dire schools.

MarshaBradyo · 19/09/2020 15:49

What is evident is that neither private nor state offer perfect diversity, some posters want to argue to death that there is no diversity in the private sector and in the state diversity is perfect

No you are being defensive. Diversity is not ‘perfect’ in state. It just exists and it’s easy to see in some London boroughs. It can also exist in private but it is bought.

I’ve used state and private and no one is ‘bleating’ -so irritating. It’s discussing what the differences are.

We can all have in mind what the optimum would be and then work backwards. 3 to 4% in private? Then work out state funding to achieve that.

Shimy · 19/09/2020 16:19

@MarshaBradyo

What is evident is that neither private nor state offer perfect diversity, some posters want to argue to death that there is no diversity in the private sector and in the state diversity is perfect

No you are being defensive. Diversity is not ‘perfect’ in state. It just exists and it’s easy to see in some London boroughs. It can also exist in private but it is bought.

I’ve used state and private and no one is ‘bleating’ -so irritating. It’s discussing what the differences are.

We can all have in mind what the optimum would be and then work backwards. 3 to 4% in private? Then work out state funding to achieve that.

The inference from some posters is that state education is the only sector that offers ‘diversity’. Wether it’s bought or not in the private sector (of course I will buy it if I can afford it, why wouldn’t I?) that’s statement is incorrect. The refusal to acknowledge there are different types of diversity is why I said they are ‘bleating on’, because that is exactly what they are doing.
MarshaBradyo · 19/09/2020 16:23

Well you sound a bit bleating on Shiny but that’s here nor there.

In some areas diversity is greater in state not private. It is zero reflection on your area. It’s a fact, you don’t need to get so antagonised.

I have raised this but at no time have I said that there’s ‘no diversity in private’. It depends on each area.

Perhaps you should be specific about which posters you mean?

steppemum · 19/09/2020 16:36

well, actually th eteachign is better.

But before you all jump down my throat, it isn't better because the teachers are better, it is better because

  1. they can teach instead of behaviour manage
  2. the class has consistant teaching, as you can replace teachers when they leave (unlike some local schools here, where subjects are taught by non specialists becuase they can't recruit maths teachers.
  3. they can give more time and attention to each child due to smaller classes
  4. they have less of an ability range in each class, which makes it easier to teach.

My kids do not go to a private school. But all of the above are serious issues in schools around us, leading to good teachers being swamped/off sick with stress.
We chose to go down 11+ and our kids now travel to a school where non of the above are issues

Shimy · 19/09/2020 16:37

In some areas diversity is greater in state not private. It is zero reflection on your area. It’s a fact, you don’t need to get so antagonised.

Your above point is not what’s been discussed is it? nor what I’m defending in my previous post? Perhaps you didn’t see the posters jeering at the Indy parents that it’s not possible to have diversity at their schools? Can it not be acknowledged that infact it is very possible by the very nature of private schools, that there is a lot of ethnic diversity and cultural difference.

MarshaBradyo · 19/09/2020 16:41

No but you quoted my post first Shiny to rebut it when it was correct. You could have not responded, as it wasn’t anything to do with your personal experience.

If you want to take up with those specific posters you mention go for it.

Wherearemymarbles · 19/09/2020 16:48

I think its been said but diversity is a function of the area surely? DS primary in London was probably 50% ethnic minority. A nieces 1500 place secondary in the NW was 100% white.

steppemum · 19/09/2020 16:50

that there is a lot of ethnic diversity and cultural difference.

That's only one type of diversity though isn't it?

How about diversity in class, money, background?
How about diversity in terms of SEN, who are massively under represented in private?

Hercwasonaroll · 19/09/2020 16:55

Economic diversity isn't rife in private schools due to their very nature. You don't get many PP or FSM students at private school. However plenty of state schools aren't ethnically diverse. No school is perfect for diversity in all directions. I think state schools have more chance of being diverse, at least economically.

maggiecate · 19/09/2020 17:03

I don’t think you get better teaching but I do think the teaching environment - smaller classes, better facilities - make a difference so it’s easier to learn. I had some brilliant teachers at my (well regarded) state school but they spent a lot of time fire fighting.

My view has always been that the ones who get let down in that situation are the ones in the middle - the bright kids do well, the troublemakers don’t care. It’s the ones who want are well behaved but not necessarily natural academics, or late developers, who would benefit most from the extra support and quieter environment. They tend to be the ones whose potential doesn’t get fulfilled.

MsTSwift · 19/09/2020 17:10

I did find myself sniggering “you wouldn’t get that at the Royal High” when dd recounted agog that a girl had thrown a fruit salad at her friend in the dinner hall and used “bad language” 🙄😁. Slightly wider view of life perhaps!
(Dd at carefully chosen All girl state in nice area full of solicitors and doctors daughters but does in theory take anyone - so I am in no position to judge anyone else’s choices!)

Afibtomyboy · 19/09/2020 17:11

The teaching is better

The teachers aren’t better

Shimy · 19/09/2020 17:19

@MarshaBradyo

No but you quoted my post first Shiny to rebut it when it was correct. You could have not responded, as it wasn’t anything to do with your personal experience.

If you want to take up with those specific posters you mention go for it.

I didn’t , I confirmed it reiterating that my view was based on my local area. You then went on to argue keeps coming up that private is diverse and that’s not the whole picture, a view that has been shared by some other posters. If someone tells you their Indy school is more ethnically diverse than their local school why would you argue that’s not the case or the whole picture? What is the whole picture then?

I’ve also pointed out that diversity is not just one aspect, so neither sector can claim they are wholly diverse. But to argue that because private schools are paid for, diversity can never exit makes no sense at all.

MsTSwift · 19/09/2020 17:20

A teacher acquaintance moved from a mixed comp to dds school and said how much more material she could cover as no crowd control issues

MarshaBradyo · 19/09/2020 17:23

Shiny many posters were popping up to talk about the diversity in their private.

It felt skewed so I stated the obvious part that was missing. In London that is not always the case.

If other posters say ‘no diversity in private’ quote them instead.

Iamagree · 19/09/2020 17:28

@damnthatanxiety

The hate aimed at private schools and people who choose private over state in MN is just embarrassing. So much for MN being middle class. It seems to be full of the angry working class
I'm not sure that "hate" is entirely fair, many people disagree on principle, that's all. Interesting to note that you assume those who do disagree and argue against private education must be "the angry working class". Just the type people you try to keep your children away from by sending them to private schools?
AliTheMinx · 19/09/2020 17:34

My DS is at a private school (now Year 4) and the teaching has been exceptional, but he is an only child so I have nothing to compare with. Alongside his class teacher who teaches the core subjects, he has specialist teachers for sports, art, French, ICT and music, so receives a very rounded education. The facilities and extra-curricular activities are great. There are 16 pupils in his class and one TA. The school has very strict rules on discipline, and there are very few disruptive students, so the teacher can spend the whole lesson teaching without distraction. His school has a very good academic record and high standards and I think teachers are chosen carefully (they are very well qualified), but I don't think this is necessarily the case for all private schools, as I know of some poor ones in the area. I also have friends who are teachers in the state sector and I have no doubt that they are excellent (and some who have poor grades themselves, which I find worrying!).

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