To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

@damnthatanxiety

The hate aimed at private schools and people who choose private over state in MN is just embarrassing. So much for MN being middle class. It seems to be full of the angry working class

Who’s going to tell her about the working class families who send their children to private schools?

I’m a senior leader at an independent school, having taught at both state and independent schools previously.

I wouldn’t say that the teachers are necessarily different in any way, but as our school is a very sought after place to work, because of all the things mentioned above, we do get to choose from an excellent field when making appointments.

I was at uni with people from boarding schools and also babysat kids who went to a private prep school and the big difference to me was that the kids from private schools had next to no life skills, had never taken responsibility for anything, had to think for themselves or mixed with people who were not like them. In some cases, they were downright odd.

[quote Chipship]@MsTSwift oh yes i agree. Diversity in private schools means mixing with children of Asian doctors. People are less keen on diversity when it involves mothers fighting in the playground and calling each other slags and worse. [/quote]
Not so. My kids mix with the children of Asian, African, Chinese and American doctors. Other years include the children of an even more diverse range of doctors' children.

Completely appalled at some of the comments about children from working class and struggling families, and about children with SEN. My children were neither but it was their privilege to mix with all strata of our local society. That is diversity.
We had a moment of madness when my eldest was in Y5 and we visited Hampton Boys on an open day. The guy in front of us (in a v expensive car so don't talk to me about sacrifice!) actually got out and said to the guy on the gate 'Do you know who I am?' When he was refused entry because the car park was full. Me and DH looked at each other and realised there and then that it wasn't for us!
Equally st the local grammar (Tiffin) we were shown round by a series of tired looking 13 year olds who all told us they'd had two years of tuition before getting a place. It stinks! Of course it's easier to teach in that environment than at the comp my two eventually went to (and excelled in).

Round here, the most vociferous anti private schoolers aren't the angry working classes, they're the MC parents who moved heaven and earth (tutors, finding god, house moves etc) to get their children into the grammars and church schools. A certain vocal minority of these then loudly congratulate themselves on their support of the state system and berate the 'unfair' private schools. Oh, the irony.

Not so. My kids mix with the children of Asian, African, Chinese and American doctors. Other years include the children of an even more diverse range of doctors' children.

This is either a piss take or has spectacularly missed the point.

@MarshaBradyo

Shiny many posters were popping up to talk about the diversity in their private.

It felt skewed so I stated the obvious part that was missing. In London that is not always the case.

If other posters say ‘no diversity in private’ quote them instead.

Before you posted to state the ‘obvious’, 7 posters including mine, had posted to say their private school was ethnically diverse. 7 out of the hundreds of posts! But you felt it was skewed and had to set the record straight. Most of the other posts were Indy school posters saying they did not think private school teachers were better. Lots of jeering posts from posters laughing at the deluded posters who thought in their personal experience, their private school was more ethnically diverse.

If in London that is not always the case (and no one said it was), does it not suffice to say outside of London will be the reverse?

Can you just accept that neither sector is perfect? Probably not.

Can you just accept that neither sector is perfect?

I don’t think state is perfect, no where near and I haven’t said so. Where have I said this?

I can post my experience without you getting arsey. Or maybe not

Whatever I don’t really care anymore and cba continuing

Controversially speaking. Why do we have to have diversity in schools? Our great grandparents didn't??

My kids will go to a tiny rural school with a white affluent cohort. They also travel the world on their holidays, are exposed to political discussion and world affairs at home and have extended family that live a much lower socio-economic life and to them.

They grow up aware that not everyone's life experience mirrors theirs despite going to a 109% white middle class school.

@goldcone

Round here, the most vociferous anti private schoolers aren't the angry working classes, they're the MC parents who moved heaven and earth (tutors, finding god, house moves etc) to get their children into the grammars and church schools. A certain vocal minority of these then loudly congratulate themselves on their support of the state system and berate the 'unfair' private schools. Oh, the irony.

Unfortunately I have a couple of close friends who do this. They let their children go to primaries in the cities for ‘diversity’ and then happened to move to areas where there were excellent grammar schools for secondary, and spent a lot of private tuition to get all of their kids in.

Yet they do like to keep their ‘socially responsible’ badge by referring to how they support the state system, and work in charities or other such jobs.

I’ve been friends with them a long time but I find this lack of honesty very grating. I for one would send my kids to a private school if I thought that it would benefit them, and I’m honest about that. I don’t have that luxury or option though, and my kids are in very diverse, and at times ropey state schools. I used to be quite for the grammar system as I grew up in an area with one, and it did seem to give some kids like me a fair chance, no one I know was given tuition and no one moved to the area, it was just more common and so many kids like me from poorer homes had the chance to go to a less chaotic school where we could be challenged more.

Controversially speaking. Why do we have to have diversity in schools? Our great grandparents didn't?? I don’t think we ‘have’ to have diversity either. I find it is something MC parent laud about like a badge of honour, which strikes me as patronising.

However if there is diversity, it should be OK.

Although I lived in a very rural area for a while made up of only locals really, who had lived there for generations and boy was it small minded, insulate and petty! I had never realized how diverse in comparison my previous experience was, and you could see how narrow any group of people who only stick with each other is.

@MarshaBradyo

Can you just accept that neither sector is perfect?

I don’t think state is perfect, no where near and I haven’t said so. Where have I said this?

I can post my experience without you getting arsey. Or maybe not

Whatever I don’t really care anymore and cba continuing

You may not have said it directly but you certainly implied it from your inability to see that the debate was infact heavily skewed towards diversity in state schools and your post including those of others to, ‘set the record straight’ was actually refusing to allow us to express OUR experience which is factual.

Ok one more Shiny
Of course I wasn’t refusing your experience

You really are imagining stuff. Stop being so angsty about it.

I didn’t imply anything. I picked up on the thread and posted my experience. It has zero bearing on yours at all. If you think it does, well that’s your thing alone.

[quote timeforanew]@drspouse thankfully that is just not true. i have a child with SENDs who didn’t cope with state school. flourishing at his independent school (not a super selective one obviously).[/quote]
Does he have behaviour problems and meltdowns?
I'm fairly sure my DS would like smaller classes but I'm also sure from the many comments here that the other families wouldn't like rudeness, fidgeting, talking, running out of the room, refusing to work etc etc. I'm not sending him to another school where the parents campaign for him to be permanently excluded.
It's a lovely idea but it's not practical.

To be fair our small south west city is really really not ethnically diverse - not sure what any sort of school can do about that really. The most expensive private school has mostly Russian and Chinese students but dds friends at the more normal private schools are all pretty much like her.

Going back to the diversity point

Where I live South London we have state schools that have quite small ethnic diversity and other schools that have a much higher proportion of pupils from an non white British background, which isn’t representative of the area. ive never quite understood this unless completely down to parents choice. For junior schools that some are really feeder schools for the private schools in the area (so very white) And no surprise that these schools are very difficult to get into, catchment area is tiny and properly prices around the school extortionate.

Unfortunately our education system even in state schools in some parts of the country is not as inclusive as it absolutely should be

On the diversity issue, my state grammar in Kent in the 70s, had two children who were mixed race (fostered by a local vicar), and two children from Jewish families. However I went to school with girls whose houses still had the servants' bells, girls from the local council estates, bus drivers dd's, dr's dd's, air force officer's dd's, bank manager's dd's, teachers' dd's (state and private), farm workers' dd's, etc etc. It was rather marvellous.

@Marmitecrackers

Controversially speaking. Why do we have to have diversity in schools? Our great grandparents didn't??

My kids will go to a tiny rural school with a white affluent cohort. They also travel the world on their holidays, are exposed to political discussion and world affairs at home and have extended family that live a much lower socio-economic life and to them.

They grow up aware that not everyone's life experience mirrors theirs despite going to a 109% white middle class school.

Wow.

Do you really think your worthy conversations round the dinner table will give your children the same understanding or empathy for the experiences of their diverse peers as sharing classrooms and friendships with them?

Have you not noticed that 25% of UK children now come from ethnically diverse backgrounds, a few more than in our grandparents’ time?

It’s great news that you allow your kids to mix with their poor relations, though. Well done, you.

Supportive parents (paying for it makes you care a lot more about it), lots of resources, smaller classes. Lots of state school teachers would seem excellent in such situations.

@timeforanew

We are just outside the M25, and ethnical diversity in state primary is nonexistent. One school had 58 kids from one ethnical /language group in reception 2 years ago (not english language, 60 kids all in all), 2 are exclusively white, one 90% white, average income above £80k. One catholic, white, £80k and above income, one parent SAHP. Very few black children at all. Independents have about the same household income as the 2 good primary schools, but are ethnically more diverse. it really depends on where you live wether there is any kind of diversity in the state sector.,

I simply do not believe that any average income is above £80k.

Internet fake news.

@goldcone same here. A house near our only non-faith excellent primary school costs at least £150 000 more than other houses.....
And to get into the (even better) catholic primary school (which is feeder school to the only excellent secondary in 15miles), you need to be catholic, live close enough (not quite that expensive, about £120000 more than comparable houses elsewhere) have one SAHP (with both parents working it is impossible to demonstrate the appropriate devotion to the catholic faith), and well off enough to afford the expected donations and the most ridiculously expensive school uniform I’ve ever seen (and kids get told off if the uniform doesn’t fit properly, so you have to buy fitting which for a girl is £900 per year minimum). We are talking about £20 poloshirts, £100 blazers, £80 summer dresses etc - for primary!

@CraftyGin London commuter belt, its very possible. Cheap houses are £450 000 here, the ones around the decent schools start at £600 000. That’s a 2 bedroom mid terrace with a tiny garden. Flats are nowhere near the good schools, rentals are at least £1500 per month. Catchment of the good schools is around 0.5 of a mile.
Just because you haven’t experienced it doesn’t mean it does exist

@greengreengrass14

That was sarcasm and a joke actually...no I don't seriously think that way...

What was sarcasm and a joke?

We used to live in SW London. The outstanding Cofe girls comp dd attended was located so that: non church families within 500 to 750m lived either in LA flats or houses worth £1.25m min. Church children within a radius of up to 2 miles max lived in properties worth circa 750k to £1m. A few worth less. Going back to 2009!

We moved dd after two years because after a new head was appointed the school introduced two behaviour policies. One for girls from good homes and one for girls without support - who for nearly five years were allowed to eff and blind at staff, create low level disruption, bully, beat another girl up, steal and put pyromaniac threats on face book as potential retribution for anyone who dobbed them in. The head was intransigent, would not allow the situation to be discussed publicly and results deteriorated year on year. It took 7 years for the governors to sit up and deal with the issue. The school has turned round now - since the Grey Coat Deputy was appointed as head! The time it took and the excuse culture was an utter disgrace. It is precisely why we moved our dd to the independent sector. Tragically parents who called it out were branded trouble makers. Oh, and in this period it got "outstanding" from Ofsted. The whole thing is absolutely terrifying. There is minimal accountability if the head supports the local left wing agenda.