To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

@merrymouse

another misconception

What do you mean CraftyGin?

It's a misconception that private schools will kick out students. There are many barriers to this.

My eldest daughter went to private school. Middle child decided to go to the local high school with her friends. After two years there, I have just pulled her out and put her in an all girls' school. Reason I did this was because of low expectations at the state school, behavioural issues, not so much of a learning culture. She was dying to leave.
Two weeks in and she's thriving. She's already far happier than she ever was in the local comp.
I have experience of both state and private school, as a parent and as a former high school teacher.
The difference is, in my opinion, night and day.

It's a misconception that private schools will kick out students. There are many barriers to this

Private schools can set their own policies, so while there must be clear procedures in place and a contract, the criteria that they use can be more stringent than would be applied in a state school.

However, I was referring more to policy than excursions. Fundamentally any private school is selling a particular style of education, which like any other product, consumers can like or leave.

On the other hand state schools are fulfilling the state's obligation to educate all children. That is a far wider remit.

exclusions, not excursions!

You are buying a way out of mixing with chavs and any parent saying otherwise is lying through their teeth

Yes go some extent . It’s proof if anyone needs it was what snobby and classist little island we are

Then is it any worse than the people who fake being religious for over a decade to get into the CofE schools ?

It’s shit here whatever way you look at it

The hate aimed at private schools and people who choose private over state in MN is just embarrassing. So much for MN being middle class. It seems to be full of the angry working class

As for expelling pupils at my DC school kids who have exhibited bad behaviour repeatedly are given a 1 last chance document for both parents and the child to sign and if they breach that they are out
It happened last year when a girl bullied DD, she was one one of these last warnings and although her behaviour in itself wouldn’t have resulted in expulsion it breached the agreement and her parents were given the option to withdraw her before she was expelled - they did. It happens around once a year as far as I can see.
And as for being snobby and classist we have friends from all walks of life and backgrounds, I am happy for my DC to mix with anyone who has similar values to us whatever their job or finances. I am NOT happy for my DC to go to a school in special measure that is ranked as one of the worst in the whole county even if it was full of millionaires (obviously it’s not)

That was sarcasm and a joke actually...no I don't seriously think that way...

@MsTSwift that's so dependent on the areas and the schools, the diversity in the private sector especially towards the top end is massive, my husband was at school with students from across the globe. The smaller local private schools I agree as less diverse but my boys when to a primary school that was 100% British white children?

So that argument doesn't stack up again private schools.

Ethnically diverse. Not economically diverse. They were the same strata of society but from different countries. Wealthy successful able to afford fees upper class from each country. That is not diverse.

I don’t hate private schools but that is my view after working with colleagues from
all over the globe I thought we were “diverse” at the time but we were actually all very similar.

Private schools tend to have far fewer students per class and also a much reduced amount being a behavioural issue.

When you remove behavioural issues from a class it becomes far easier to teach and give time to students who need it.

At the moment, I spend around 1/4 to 1/3 of my lessons managing poor behaviour. Most teachers do that where I work.

@CraftyGin

I just think how that would be perfect if the parents and the school would be willing to accept a child who has meltdowns.

They many not have meltdowns in a calmer environment, with good pastoral care on hand.

With an EHCP, they may be able to get a LSA to assist the student.

Sadly he does still have the occasional aggressive meltdown in his current PRU with 8 in a class. He does have 1:1 in his EHCP. He's getting better but we could never guarantee no meltdowns and he'd also still be fidgeting, running out of class, talking, refusing to work (all while still learning though, I know it's an ADHD thing but he yammers away, gets told off but then can still remember what the teacher said).

You're right MrsTSwift. But neither is a state school diverse if it's only populated by white kids. State schools are only ever going to be representative of their local area, not society as a whole (and some state schools are much less diverse than their local area because of academic or religious selection). So I still think it's valid to appreciate the ethnic diversity at a private school even when you're perfectly well aware that's its absolutely not economically diverse.

@MsTSwift it seems the only type of diversity that counts or that matters to you is economic diversity. The fact is most people want diversity but current provisions of both state and private do not offer all types. So individuals choose whichever one is moral important to them based on what they already have.

You’ve chosen economic diversity, so wether your dc attends a school that is mainly white both (students & staff) is of no consequence to you (I’m assuming you’re white), what would make you and your dc uncomfortable would be lack of economic diversity. You are not rolling in or perhaps you are and just want a good balance. ‘Diversity’ to you therefore always and only equals diverse income levels.

But your view is blinkered. As an ethnic minority, having our dc mix with diverse ethnicities and cultures and befriending other dc who look like them as well as the dominant culture was as important to us in raising our dc in the real world as economic diversity is to you.

That’s not to say everyone at the private school is on the same income bracket (far from it) anymore than it would be to say local state school is 100% white (although close, the local primary had only 2 kids of a different ethnicity when DS went there, he was the 3rd).

In the end, we are all trying our best to give our dc the best education possible with whatever resources we have and whatever priorities we have set. Neither priority is better, just different. You however, want to insist that your priorities are the most virtuous because you’re not paying for your dc’s education. This is a delusion.

Ethnic diversity in state v private is very area dependent. Some London state schools will be large proportion mixed.

Many years ago I went to a fee-paying grammar school (direct grant). My chemistry teacher had tried teaching at a local comp but refused to accept bad behaviour. Was very lucky, her PhD supervisor had a Nobel prize for organic chemistry. In the 6th form she only taught organic and we had another for inorganic/physical. Other teachers were similarly brilliant

@MarshaBradyo

Ethnic diversity in state v private is very area dependent. Some London state schools will be large proportion mixed.

Yes of course. That’s why I referred to my local area.

Shiny yes I know. I wasn’t talking about your post just generally. It keeps coming up that private is diverse and that’s not the whole picture.

Very well put, shimy. I think people who live in London (for example) and ridicule those who say they like the ethnic diversity of independent schools don't appreciate just how lacking in diversity some non-city schools are. DS didn't have a single non-white child in his entire school throughout seven years of primary.

*You are buying a way out of mixing with chavs and any parent saying otherwise is lying through their teeth

Yes go some extent . It’s proof if anyone needs it was what snobby and classist little island we are*

Its more sad that there are such problematic families with poorly brought up children that people need to buy their way out of being around them.

It's no different either to buying a house in a middle class rural area to try to get a school with nice children.

@MarshaBradyo

Shiny yes I know. I wasn’t talking about your post just generally. It keeps coming up that private is diverse and that’s not the whole picture.

Generally speaking, private are more ‘ethnically’, diverse because they are not constrained by catchment and as you know the catchment/local area will will play a strong hand in how ethnically diverse the local school is. Private schools can take children from all over the country including internationally as in my dc’s school.

@larrygrylls

Ddraig,

Lots of middle class people? It is a cheap private school at £15k per annum. Adding on the generally accepted 20-30% for extras (uniforms, lunches, trips etc) that makes 18k/annum. Most have two children (and some more) so that is 36k after tax, or around £60k of pre tax earnings.

No one without a family income of much less than £120k is even going to consider it. And £15k is outside London. In London fees will rarely be below £20k, so a household income of more like £150k. Bear in mind the national average income is £34k for full time workers...

There are families who make big sacrifices but, on the whole, most fee payers are already, in most people’s understanding of the word, rich.

Actually I've checked and £15k is a pretty representative figure for sixth formers across most of the country. Go down to KS1 and £9k is par for the course. Obviously things are more expensive if you go for the very elite schools or go for boarding but St Paul's, Westminster etc. are hardly representative of most independent schools.

Shiny That doesn’t reflect my old area no, in terms of state v private.

In new area there’s less diversity in state as house prices have an effect.

In former more people who could would pay rather than use just house price.

I’d say it’s fairly similar in many London boroughs.