To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

If someone’s bright and knowledgeable in their subject they’re at least halfway to being a good one.

Yes but Oxbridge 1st is way in excess of the amount of knowledge required to teach even A-level.

Luckily there are lots of of bright intelligent people who didn’t go to Oxbridge.

Honestly, if a school is boasting about staff who went to Oxbridge their message is ‘we have contacts and know the system’, not that they will teach a subject better.

And do you even need a PGCE to be a teacher anyway?

@drspouse That's not true of all indies. The selective independent schools are sometimes the worst as they rely on selection and pushy parents (who will supervise far too much homework and often get tutors to boot) to get results and often use outdated teaching methods. Some smaller indies can be quite inclusive.

In regards to charitable status it isnt all about offering bursaries and sponsorships I can give you some examples of our schools charitable efforts

Swimming pool - provided for free to two local state schools. Without this the schools would not be able to offer.

Music room - again offered for free to two local schools, including the free use of all equipment, that includes pianos that our school pays to fund raise for.

Flood lit pitches - again offered for free to local schools, not just during the school day but also after school.

Books - all reading books at our girls school are given to local schools when replaced. As they are all replaced yearly thats quite a lot of books.

Use of theatre and main hall - for free for any of their after school.

In addition, the school provides use of its facilities for free to any local charitable groups throughout the year.

Im sure there are more these are just the things I am aware of.

In terms of whether teachers are better or not - private schools offer higher wages, discounted fees for their staff, small classes, a lower probability of abusove parents and the promise of a class full of children whose parents value education enough to pay for it.

If I were a teacher I think I would be more attracted to teaching in the environment and thus private schools have more of a pick of applicants. Whether that results in the best teachers who knows, but as various people have already stated quality of teaching is one part of why parents choose to pay for their children's education.

What I can tell you is at one of our daughters schools parents were unhappy about one teacher. The parents grouped together with their complaints. Within a month not only was the teacher removed but a new permanent teacher in place. This is reflective of the awareness private schools have of the business they opperate within, i suspect a state school would not react in quite the same way.

You need a degree to get on a PGCE so you can't be "dumb as a brick". I'd take someone who is decent at conveying knowledge over someone with oxbridge qualifications any day.

[quote Monkeynuts18]@CraftyGin?

What’s ‘good’?[/quote]
Generally understood to be a first or 2.1

Teaching is no better in private schools classes are just smaller so teachers can give the kids more attention. Also as bad as it sounds it's about the other kids they mix with as in general there aren't many children who come from families that don't value their child's education highly.

@drspouse thankfully that is just not true. i have a child with SENDs who didn’t cope with state school. flourishing at his independent school (not a super selective one obviously).

@doodlejump1980

I know someone who has only taught in private schools. He thinks the sun shines out his arse cos he always gets good results. Yeah smaller class sizes, and most of the kids have private tutors too will do that. He wouldn’t last a minute in a state school. The silver spoon would be hard to keep balanced in his mouth. He has no experience of class management of kids who don’t want to be there. He has experienced a very sheltered way of teaching. I’d love to see how he’d cope in a bigger inner-city school.

This just sounds horrible. Why would you be so petty as to want to see an acquaintance fail? And why does it matter if they ‘wouldn’t last 5 minutes’? Does that make you better?

I teach in a boarding school and yes we don’t have the behaviour to deal with but that’s not really the teaching. I’m bloody good at supporting and stretching able students in their passions and getting the best out of them. Is that not teaching?

@Monkeynuts18 absolutely because parents paying fees can hold the school to account. I'd send mine private if I could afford it, I can't.

In regards to charitable status it isnt all about offering bursaries and sponsorships

Schools really vary - some schools take their charitable status seriously and some don’t - but there is no formal way to check what they are doing. The charities commission leaves them to their own devices.

[quote MyTwoLeftFeet]@drspouse That's not true of all indies. The selective independent schools are sometimes the worst as they rely on selection and pushy parents (who will supervise far too much homework and often get tutors to boot) to get results and often use outdated teaching methods. Some smaller indies can be quite inclusive.[/quote]
Outdated teaching methods - such as actual science practicals, rather than endless models with cards and bits of string?

Most of us have PGCEs so are well aware of innovative teaching methods.

With independence, we don't need to do all that Walt, Wilf, WWW, EBI, and DIRT nonsense.

absolutely because parents paying fees can hold the school to account.

It’s not so much that they can hold the school to account - private schools have much more freedom to say ‘it’s my way or the highway’.

It’s more that they can choose to go elsewhere (even if their only choice is the local state school). This only matters to the school if they can’t refill the space.

@merrymouse

absolutely because parents paying fees can hold the school to account.

It’s not so much that they can hold the school to account - private schools have much more freedom to say ‘it’s my way or the highway’.

It’s more that they can choose to go elsewhere (even if their only choice is the local state school). This only matters to the school if they can’t refill the space.

another misconception

[quote MyTwoLeftFeet]@drspouse That's not true of all indies. The selective independent schools are sometimes the worst as they rely on selection and pushy parents (who will supervise far too much homework and often get tutors to boot) to get results and often use outdated teaching methods. Some smaller indies can be quite inclusive.[/quote]
We had a very bad experience with a small mainstream primary so though I know in theory non-selective independents could be OK, I'm really wary of even approaching any.
But my old friend's DC is in a small indie primary with 12 in her class and I just think how that would be perfect if the parents and the school would be willing to accept a child who has meltdowns.

Nor RTWT but absolutely.

I'm an assistant in a state school and we have some fantastic teachers (not all) but lots of the parents and the community are so unsupportive, don't value education which makes their job so much harder. Also the cuts to funding are so difficult, esp for additional needs support.

YANBU - I went to a bottom of the range private school, the sort where parents afforded it by not having a larger house/car/holiday or by the mothers working, at a time when that was unusual. So all the parents were motivated, if the children weren't motivated the parents would often give up and move them to state school, and the school had the freedom to chuck out any disruptive pupils.
It's like having a school with only well-behaved pupils.

I just think how that would be perfect if the parents and the school would be willing to accept a child who has meltdowns.

They many not have meltdowns in a calmer environment, with good pastoral care on hand.

With an EHCP, they may be able to get a LSA to assist the student.

@xcess2184

At the independent school I went to there was no such thing as detention because nothing really happened. No fights, talking back, stealing or anything like that...worst offence was late homework.

We didn't cause the teachers any real stress other than a bit of chatting. Also, many teachers had a real passion for their subject which was almost infectious and at times when we went off on a slight tangent because a pupil asked an interesting question, you really could tell they enjoyed teaching. Not all but I'd say the majority were like that.

Mine was the same. No fighting, v minor rudeness, none of the abuse, spitting etc I've seen aimed at other kids and staff alike in the state sector.

I intend to send my kids to private school for smaller class sizes, instilled discipline, better facilities. I don't for a second think the teaching is going to be better - or worse.

@merrymouse that is true, however that is also true of other charities and charitable trusts. The reality of the charities commission is that they check very little of anyone, they are quite dormant. My sister has spent her life working for charities and it was one of her largest complaints during the earlier years of her career. Its less of a bother to her now as she heads up significant areas that at least in her experience are commonly abused by charities. Anyway thats a massive topic so I woudk continue that here!

I don't really agree with the principle of private education but the system is the way it is and having experience both private and state myself, I know do first hand that private education is generally better because of the environment and small classes. I have to say though I'm also glad I had a mix of both. I think private all the way through can produce some very naive kids.

I agree marchitectmummy - if the government did start to examine the charitable status of schools, it would put the whole charitable sector under a spotlight.

another misconception

What do you mean CraftyGin?

larrygrylls this teacher didn’t teach my children so I am nit completely sure but I understand that it wasn’t about a group of parents being pushy. It was more about a lack of discipline leading to a few incidents in class, very little homework being set, even less marked and the dc in that class becoming very disengaged in that subject
When parents pay directly for education they can and do complain loudly when they don’t feel they are getting what they pay for. I don’t think the teacher was exactly marched off the premises but it was suggested she was more suited to HE or Academia than teaching 11-16 year olds
There were some brilliant teachers at my DCs State Primary and some that weren’t but I accepted that. However, if there was a teacher at their Private Secondary who I didn’t feel was engaging my DC or doing the basics I would question it - not organise a march on the school with flaming torches and pitchforks but ask questions and see if it was the teacher or my DC
As for people with Oxbridge degrees teaching then that’s great but academic success doesn’t necessarily mean you can teach. My DH is brilliant in his field and very clever but he struggles to teach the more basic concepts to our DC.

It's the same as sixth forms and universities who advertise brilliant results. If you only take the more able kids, you're ALWAYS going to get the best results aren't you!