To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

The OP is NBU at all.
My DS has ADHD and doesn't cope with large class sizes.
I'd love to find him a nice little independent school with small classes and no academic pressure but I know the school would hate him being there because the naice parents would complain about his random behaviour/teachers would expect him to sit still and not talk.

About half the teachers at my DDS's private school are Oxbridge educated and the rest went to decent universities. Can you say that of many state schools nowadays?

Just wanted to add my tuppence worth if that's ok.
I have 1 dc currently at state primary and 1 at private secondary.

I personally have never heard anyone saying that they chose to privately educate their dc as they felt the teaching was better.

For me, I had never considered private education for my dc. However, for various reasons I found myself having to apply for an in year admission to a local secondary school. All the state schools were heavily oversubscribed and the only space available was at a historically infamous state school. My dc tried it for a month, as I had no other option, but it quickly became evident that it was not good for them. Quickly dc began suffering from anxiety, daily headaches, school refusal and I had to act quickly to remove my child from that awful environment. In their time there they reported an average of 5 pupils per lesson being sent out of each lesson for disruptive behaviour and were exposed to racism, witnessing quite serious fights, being shown graphic videos on other students phones, finding drug paraphernalia in the toilets...the list goes on. As a bright and sensitive child I knew that I had to act quickly.

With no other state school places available locally my only option was to consider the private sector.

My dc is now like a different child since being at the private school. No longer depressed, but happy, engaging properly and positively with education and school work, and has good relationships with other pupils and teachers. Having spoken to some other parents, the consensus seems to be that although a few of the parents would be considered 'rich', many are middle class families with a care and concern for their dc and their education and for whatever reason felt that the state school offering was not right for their child. The benefits of the co-curricular and pastoral elements are often cited as being important reasons for parents choosing the school. Some have scholarships/bursaries that have made private schooling a viable option for them.

As a single parent it is tough financially as the fees take up the majority of my wage but I absolutely know that I have made the right decision for my child. I am not for or against private schools but know that this particular school is the right choice for my child. I realise that I am fortunate to be in a position that I had a choice - for many parents it simply isn't an option financially. I also think it is a shame that in some state schools there is such disparity between children's experiences. I myself thrived at a good comprehensive school having spent the 2 years prior to this hating my time at the grammar school.

I don't know what the answer is but find it a great shame that the education system as it is appears broken and many of our children are being failed.

@Balhammom Studies have shown there isn't much of a difference in teacher quality based on their education. What does matter is how effective the teacher is at teaching. As I said up thread, on paper I look rubbish re qualifications. I teach next door to a person with a first in maths from RG University. My results outstrip his every year.

@CraftyGin Which parts are rubbish?

@drspouse

The OP is NBU at all. My DS has ADHD and doesn't cope with large class sizes. I'd love to find him a nice little independent school with small classes and no academic pressure but I know the school would hate him being there because the naice parents would complain about his random behaviour/teachers would expect him to sit still and not talk.

So state schools parents shrug off disruption to their child’s education?

@Balhammom

About half the teachers at my DDS's private school are Oxbridge educated and the rest went to decent universities. Can you say that of many state schools nowadays?

How on earth would one know unless they asked at a state school?!

@Balhammom

About half the teachers at my DDS's private school are Oxbridge educated and the rest went to decent universities. Can you say that of many state schools nowadays?

Well I think it's a bit odd that someone who went to Oxbridge decides to become a teacher when presumably they could pursue a host of career options. Besides having a good education doesn't translate to being a good teacher. At all.

Wtf Coronals?! DH went to a private (public) school and became a teacher. He never wanted to do anything else. Luckily not everyone is motivated by salary, regardless of where they went to school! (Though I agree that going to Oxbridge absolutely doesn't mean that you're necessarily a good teacher. I went to Oxford and I would have been a bloody awful teacher.)

@Balhammom

About half the teachers at my DDS's private school are Oxbridge educated and the rest went to decent universities. Can you say that of many state schools nowadays?

Not as unusual as you might think, particularly in schools which have worked with the TeachFirst programme since 2003. I'm an Oxbridge-educated state school teacher and so is DH. There are quite a lot of us, although of course our degree is no guarantee that we will automatically be good teachers.

Well I think it's a bit odd that someone who went to Oxbridge decides to become a teacher when presumably they could pursue a host of career options.

This is a very depressing attitude.

Well I think it's a bit odd that someone who went to Oxbridge decides to become a teacher when presumably they could pursue a host of career options.
Wtf????? Teacher is an amazing profession, and can be incredibly fulfilling. Not badly paid either.
One of my reasons for private schools is that I want my children to value their teacher and what they offer, not as seeing them as a hurdle between themselves and fortnite which seems to be the most popular attitude at least at the 2 state primaries I know kids in (and where boys who express an interest in learning get mercilessly bullied). I appreciate there are many excellent state school, unfortunately not near us

I suppose the teaching just will be better because of the smaller class sizes and better facilities and better behaviour though.

The qualification doesn’t bother me. Tbh I’d rather someone had an Oxbridge first in the subject they teach than a PGCE.

Why so many “private school” threads at the moment?

This one kicks off with - ”I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers...”

But who has actually said that?

Then there’s another one right now about diversity in state schools versus private - when clearly, this is a rural versus urban issue and location-specific.

Yesterday there was another one, but can’t remember what the burning issue was there.

It's obvious to anyone with a brain cell that independent schools exist for a wide variety of purposes and vary as a much as state schools.

For instance, I have DC in 3 different independent schools. Crap teachers across the board in one, many of whom wouldn’t stand a chance in the state sector. Exceptional teachers in the other - eg. LSE lecturers for Economics; double Oxbridge PHD for Geography - all who go above and beyond, if a bit eccentric. But they know their stuff, that’s for sure. Very dynamic attitude. The third school, I’m reserving judgement as yet as early days, but the pastoral care is outstanding, I would say. So horses for courses.

The main thing the ability to pay for independent school gives you is choice. If one school isn’t right, people will vote with their feet. You are a consumer, in other words. Unfortunately, if your state catchment school is crap, you are stuck with it. That is the issue.

Would you REALLY monkey when it's been shown teacher expertise in their subject has little correlation with success as a teacher. More prejudice.

Tbh I’d rather someone had an Oxbridge first in the subject they teach than a PGCE.

Passion for a subject often doesn’t translate into teaching ability. There is also a massive gulf between teaching Animal Farm at GCSE and studying English at Oxford.

That’s not to say that studying English at Oxford precludes anyone from teaching Animal Farm, just that the skills are different.

And the children have been taught to behave in a reasonably respectful and disciplined fashion at school.

I find this point of view interesting.
I was privately educated and I now work in a state school. I would say the difference between the two isn't that behaviour is "better" in private as so many assume, but that it manifests differently. So in private you don't get the persistent low-level disruption in class, the shouting out/swearing at Teachers or the very public fights in the playground that you might see at a state secondary, as a previous poster said chairs will not be thrown. The kids are very aware that such public displays of challenging behaviour aren't 'acceptable' and they care about how adults perceive them. However, at the private schools I went to peer on peer sexual harassment, drug use, racism, homophobia and bullying were all absolutely rife but they were also very well hidden from adults. The parents had no idea what went on. The Teachers either didn't know either or were very good at looking the other way.

I'm still not sure which is worse- kids who behave badly in public because they're out of control or kids who behave equally badly but are in control enough that it's hidden behind a veneer of respectability. But I do know that the former is much tougher for Teachers to have to manage on a day to day basis.

Let’s face it, if passion for a subject translated into teaching ability, the last few months would have been much easier for many parents! 😄

I have no doubt too performing schools in London for example have the opportunity to get really excellent teachers who have to prove themselves

But I also know a fair few teachers with a strong pro state belief and this will mean state gets some excellent teachers who choose it

I’d agree with your comments on private school behaviour washimal, but in my experience behaviour could become out control in private schools when pupils thought they could get away with it, but then the teacher would leave.

There would be a couple of terms of sick leave and then they wouldn’t come back.

In some cases they were effectively bullied out of their job by the pupils, but how do you complain about the behaviour of such nice young gels?

@Monkeynuts18

I suppose the teaching just will be better because of the smaller class sizes and better facilities and better behaviour though.

The qualification doesn’t bother me. Tbh I’d rather someone had an Oxbridge first in the subject they teach than a PGCE.

I have one of those in a maths based subject. I cannot teach maths to other people as to me its essentially an automatic skill, like blinking. In my experience people who have struggled a bit are often much better at explaining concepts in easier and simpler ways.

@merrymouse and @Hercwasonaroll

Sure. As with lots of things (medicine and law for example) academic ability is only half the story. But the PGCE isn’t a guarantee of teaching ability either. If someone’s dumb as a brick, they’re going to be a shocking teacher with or without a PGCE. If someone’s bright and knowledgeable in their subject they’re at least halfway to being a good one.

I agree it's nothing to do with the teachers and everything to do with the smaller classes and better facilities.

Whilst I enjoy working in a state school I would be able to offer so much more if my class sizes were reduced so I could give each student more attention.

I also feel forcing non academic students through GCSEs instead of allowing them to get experience in vocational subjects is detrimental to students and is a major cause of poor behaviour and low attainment. The whole state system needs an overhaul.

[quote Monkeynuts18]**@merrymouse* and @Hercwasonaroll*

Sure. As with lots of things (medicine and law for example) academic ability is only half the story. But the PGCE isn’t a guarantee of teaching ability either. If someone’s dumb as a brick, they’re going to be a shocking teacher with or without a PGCE. If someone’s bright and knowledgeable in their subject they’re at least halfway to being a good one.[/quote]
You do realise you need to have a good honours degree to do a PGCE?

True, of course.

I switched from a state school (a good one!) to a private school at 16, in Ireland though where private schools are not as expensive so not as elite in comparison with other schools. But the difference was that there was nothing 'cool' about insouciance over how you were going to do in the exams. At the state school there was a bit of bravado ''haven't opened a book!'' and at the private school, students were quite open about their strategy to get 560 points for medicine (probably 700 now).

Back in my day when Moses was a lad, the bottom class was given all of the worst teachers and oh boy yeh private school or not, they had some properly BAD teachers. I know it's not the same now because they can't get away with that now that league tables are published but in 1989 my private school was an absolute disgrace. Teachers should have been absolutely ashamed of themselves. Some of them bullied me. THE TEACHERS.

Also, slight tangent here but I’ve got to admit that the Covid crisis has made me determined to privately educate my kid when the time comes. Having heard from friends about the disparity in provision during the lockdown between state and private. The attainment gap is going to widen massively.

Yeah I know that’s a facilities issue more than a teaching issue. But as far as I can see the teaching was definitely better in the private sector during that period.

@CraftyGin?

What’s ‘good’?