To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

As for quality of teaching at Private schools I would have thought that results have to be achieved and if they aren’t then the teacher won’t last long. At DCs school there has occasionally been a teacher that seems a bit clueless, they don’t last long as the parents are generally right on it if they don’t feel their child is getting the standard of teaching they should. There was one who started last year and was from higher education, loads of published papers and letters after her name. She couldn’t adapt to teaching 11-16 year olds, some parents complained and she was gone, lasted under a year.
I agree that the teachers have it easier in terms of class sizes, discipline and parent engagement but they also have to show results or parents will complain and they will get sacked. I was at a wedding with a load of (State) school teachers recently and they were talking about how hard it is to get rid of a “bad” teacher in the State sector. One even argued there was no such thing because even if they weren’t very good at teaching students maybe there were “other areas they were good in”
After a few drinks one Male teacher said to me “ Hopping, unless I punch or fuck a student I am pretty safe”
I don’t know how true that’s is or if it was just drunk bragging but I do know that teachers at my DCs school who don’t seem up to standard don’t last long

But anyway, as a policy I agree that it needs to decide whether it wants to reduce numbers in private schools or increase funding for state schools, because it can’t do both.

larrygrylls ... I didn't get any tax breaks ???????

I think hercwasonaroll is quite right about bursaries. They're a good thing, but the limitation with them is that those who think to apply for them are generally going to be families who are already invested in their children's education and confident to apply. That means a) knowing about them at all, b) being willing and able to support their child through the entrance exam, and c) not feeling intimidated by the grand buildings and the Bentleys in the car park. Similarly, I've known families who wouldn't put their kids in for Oxbridge because they just don't feel that they would 'belong'. Plus they would have to think about siblings - how would you feel if your very able child got a bursary at a fantastic private school but their less academically able sibling had to go to the special measures comp because you couldn't afford an independent but not academic school for them? I suspect that the number of truly disadvantaged pupils who take up bursary places (ie kids who are disadvantaged by parental attitudes as well as by low income) is vanishingly small. A lot of private schools do try to reach out to such families but it's not easy. Primary schools are themselves not always willing to actively encourage children to try for these types of opportunities either, because they may be quite ideologically opposed to private education.

It's a bit of a badge of honour among state teachers that private school teachers are where they are because they couldn't hack it in a "real" school.
i would expect there is a certain amount of sour grapes in there....
I wouldn’t trust any teacher who can’t respect their counterparts, and would think that napoleon conplex makes them inferior teachers by definition

Conifer,

You earlier said that no pupil was disrespectful of parents. Just have a look at Hoppinggreen’s post above!

Within a few weeks of starting the parents (clearly based on their children’s opinions) decided that a new teacher could not teach and they ‘were gone’.

I have no problem with bad teachers being sacked, by the way, but after due process and given a chance to adapt their teaching to a new environment, not just due to a group of pushy parents deciding ‘not for us’.

Disrespectful of teachers, not parents

Vicky,

If the school fees are lower due to their tax break, that is effectively a tax break for you!

Oh look. Another Private School bashing thread. How unusual. All schools are different, teachers are different, management, roles & working environments different. If you don't like private schools, don't send your children to them. If you're angry about the treatment of state schools then focus on that. It's why a lot of us go to the private sector.

Double,

The thread is more interesting and complex than that.

If you don’t want to engage, don’t post.

Simples!

It's really not. It's anecdote and prejudice, as usual.

larrygrylls ..... everybody is entitled to post their opinion, wind your neck in.

No that’s not correct.

For a start private school parents are NOT getting a tax break of £8k because they are paying for a state place through taxes and NOT using it. So if there’s any “tax break”, it’s only the marginal difference of the change eg 20%. Which you could if you wanted to argue the other way say nets out against the value of the state school place
and say is actually an extra COST of £1,400.

Secondly, the extra levy would apply to 100% of private pupils left AFTER people had left for the state system.

Conifer,

If you take that argument to its logical conclusion, billionaires who hardly use the state at all, even having private security, should pay virtually no tax as they use virtually nothing from the state.

That is not how taxes work.

Secondly, the extra levy would apply to 100% of private pupils left AFTER people had left for the state system.

That was taken into account in the calculation.

Parents pay tax either way, just like everyone else, regardless of whether they have children.

@merrymouseouse you’re correct the max cost would be 5k, my point was you can’t budget for levy from 100% of private pupils because many of them will leave, so if you were to do that (as @larrygrylls did) then you’d be c.8k out. I agree very much with all your posts btw, especially this:

as a policy I agree that it needs to decide whether it wants to reduce numbers in private schools or increase funding for state schools, because it can’t do both.

Larry one anecdote doesn’t reflect the entire system. I stick by what I said that discipline and respect for authority are cornerstones of the private system. Of course there are exceptions, as there are everywhere, but the huge majority absolutely do not “look down” on their teachers, which was where this part of the thread originated.

People, I have to go out so I’m not ignoring replies but will try to come back later as it’s a good discussion

I’m not making that argument, I’m all in favour of taxes. I’m pointing out that your assertion that private school parents get an 8K tax break is rubbish.

I've enjoyed this thread as a state teacher. It's been informative.

My DD 11 has just finished her first two weeks at an all girls private school. I have never heard her so engaged. The small class sizes is what she needed. Her year 6 state school teacher said it was the right decision for her.

I'm a single parent so financially it is a little painful but I wanted her educated away from the fanatical gender ideology seeping into schools, breaking down girls boundaries and consent.

Also the sexual assault stats in mixed secondary schools are alarming.

I went to an all girls state school myself and I wouldn't have it any other way for my daughter.

There is so much nonsense on this thread.

Conifer,

If you accept that we pay taxes not for what you use but to help others, how is the VAT break on school fees, if passed on to fee payers, not a tax break?!

Do you believe in private medicine also being vat exempt and being given charitable status on the same basis (not using the NHS)?

I started teaching in Tottenham and Camden at properly ‘rough’ schools. I liked it ( I was young though!). I’ve taught at private school for 15 years now. The difference is that teachers at (many) private schools can flourish as teachers because they aren’t focusing 60% of their energy on behaviour management.
Disclaimer: of course not all schools and all teachers. Just general trends.

This is an interesting thread to read. In the main, we each only have our own experience on which to draw. I had a state education. I automatically went for the same for my DC. I was fortunate, I thought, to have a range of good nearby state primaries. I had volunteered in one, and while I liked it, thought it was too big for my DC with some additional needs. So I picked a "naice" village primary with a reputation for good pastoral care. I removed DC after four years of failure to tackle bullying. I tried hard to work with the school but the message in the end was "we don't have the resources or the staff to keep the children apart all the time". A lesser, but important, consideration was that as long as DC was achieving the middle level, there was no teacher time or energy to stretch them.

When the safety issue became acute, I moved them. Now in a private selective single-sex prep and completely thriving. Does have some additional needs but the head said at interview that they could see the whole child, and felt they would do well at the school. It's been like night and day. DC just so bloody happy and improving academically "I can concentrate much better now I don't have to worry who's going to be hit today"

The fees are a huge, huge stretch and we scrimp on everything else to do it. By scrimp I mean a tight budget for groceries, tracking every penny, accepting "holidays" will be visiting relatives in the UK for the foreseeable future (once allowed!). I would make the same choice in a heartbeat. I live in slight terror of losing my job, and I took out sickness insurance pronto, but it's worth it.

Do I think the teachers are miles better? No, but I think they have miles more time - time in the classroom to really know each child in smaller classes; time to plan (because lots of subjects are taught by specialists so the class teacher has much more planning time); time to try out ideas for individual children who need support or challenge; time for their own CPD so they have a stream of new ideas and the freedom to explore them.

One of the strangest brags that a friend of ours made about their child's private school (This is from a social circle of upper level university academics, for context) is that it was so incredibly "diverse" because it was full of all sorts of doctors...not just medical, but academic as well.

But yes, as a former private school teacher myself, I can vouch that private education buys nothing more than the right connections, bragging rights and the assurance that "less-desirable" pupils can be managed out of the school if they prove to be a poor fit for the environment. A better education is debatable. More attention, yes, as class sizes are much smaller than the state provision, but many private educators do not hold the proper teacher training or credentials.

@larrygrylls ok so at first you were interesting and now you’re sounding like a broken record. I can’t be bothered anymore so I’m not coming back later.

Why don’t you turn your clearly pent up frustrations to equalising the distribution of privilege, economic advantage, religious selection, diversity and abundant social capital that underpin many outperforming state schools and then we can have a conversation about tax breaks which will frankly make no difference because it’s not the source of social inequality or reason we have underperforming schools!

Because now you just sound like you’re having a cheap pop at private schools because they’re an easy target.

I refer to my first comment:

Stop blaming private schools for the government getting things wrong!