To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

Your buying small class sizes and more facilities but also a sense of entitlement and a privilege your children will spend their lifetime denying exists.

@larrygrylls did you see my last post, I’m genuinely interested

Teachers in private schools don't need the very specific government QTS. Many don't have it but may well have a PGCE but couldn't afford the QTS payment, or an overseas qualification. (I know examples of both).
There was also a period about (10??) years ago when the government stopped independent school training schemes from accrediting so people trained in that time in the independent sector technically aren't 'qualified'. I worked in an independent school at the time with an excellent training programme, but the trainees over those few years didn't get QTS. Not qualified officially but doesn't mean they aren't trained. Some of them are the best teachers I know.
Teachers are no better or worse in either sector, the difference is what freedom they have to teach in different ways, class sizes = more individual attention and so forth.

I haven't read the full thread but I thought I would say - there are many different types of private school. Near here there is one that is 'exclusive' - posh - expensive - incredible facilities, but not very nurturing. Another that is kind of in the middle - but is really good for sports. The other has Ok facilities but is known for being excellent pastorally. So my son goes there as he has needs that would mean he would struggle in massive class in mainstream. The teachers are just good teachers - normal - some are excellent some average and a couple not so good - like every school. My son is finally doing well...

[quote ConiferGate]@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter gosh someone’s looking for a reaction [/quote]
Not really- the OP asked for opinions and that is mine. Other people are free to disagree. My opinion is based on the experiences of several people I know who attended private schools. I also know many successful and intelligent people who did amazingly well in life who attended state school. Therefore, I dont view private school as either necessary or a guarantee for later success.
The private schools I know are not diverse at all and I dont like that, I think its classist and elitist.

I also do find it a slightly self contradictory argument, for the people who see no problem with fees pricing people out of the private sector, that somehow removing the tax breaks would be a bad thing, as many would no longer be able to afford it.

Ummm, tough! The majority will still be able to afford it and, for the minority, they will join the vast majority of the population who cannot afford fees in the first place.

Or, of course, like some schools already do, the majority of schools could prioritise making bursaries available for those from all backgrounds, intelligently sharing the schools’ wonderful facilities and making specialist teaching available to those who would really benefit in partnership schools. This will happen. It already is. It is just that some schools are leading the charge and others are being dragged along kicking and screaming.

Conifer,

Yes, but once again you did not address the tax break issue directly.

As to privileged state schools, the solution is ‘bussing’, which has been tried. It does lead to truly ‘fair’ schools but brings in many more problems. There is lots of literature about it.

A truly ‘fair’ system is close to impossible but the fact that you cannot solve all of the problems does not mean you should not address any of them.

@eatsleepread

I've never heard of private school teachers not needing a teaching qualification I can assure you that in Scotland at least, they very much do.

Absolutely, and they are now, like state school teachers, going to be required to be registered with the regulatory body.

Its about the whole package and even then sometimes that can go array, an incompetent teacher, a bully, a child that doesn't fit into the system

education is not a one size fits all

my dds went through the state system, unlike their mother but both did far better in the state system than there mother did academically, they also both went to different local schools as they had different persnalities and it was felt the same school wouldn't be suitable for both

@ConiferGate

It's a bit of a badge of honour among state teachers that private school teachers are where they are because they couldn't hack it in a "real" school.

This is very sad to hear. Although it says more about the state school teachers than it does about the private schools to be honest.

I don't recognise this opinion and if we're declaring things to be 'sad' then jumping on this one lone voice is a pretty good example.

One of my closest friends is a contemporary of mine from Oxford. She is now a housemistress at a major English public school. I also teach but have specialised in working in challenging state schools. Our jobs are like night and day. Each has their challenges and while we both respect the other's work neither of us would swap.

I have shared planning and resources with her from my own high ability students and although she would be happy to reciprocate it isn't really practical. I have a great deal of respect for my colleagues in the private sector but the idea that they know anything about how to run the schools where I work is frankly a bit insulting.

Both mine at private
Have been at state. An outstanding one.

Teaching standard similar

Everything else, literally everything else - better. Shed loads better.

We chose Private Secondary school for our DC for the very simple reason that our local State school is in special measures and moving house would have cost the same/more.

I think it’s more about the fact that the families of kids regard education very highly so a lot of emphasis is put on it at home and at school. Smaller class sizes help but actually it’s more because there is the time to notice the individual and nurture interests and talents

It's the opportunities that are better. And school/parental expectation.

The teaching is not better. In fact, it can be worse as you don't have to be qualified to teach in a private school.

@larrygrylls The tax issue is a diversion that in reality will make very little difference to state education because much of it will be absorbed by bureaucracy and children leaving the private system / schools closing because of increases before it even reaches state schools, and it will make very little difference to the rest of the fee payers who can afford it anyway, so from that perspective it’s a waste of time arguing about it. Either it happens and there will be huge unintended problems associated with it (like the “fairer” system of “bussing”?) or it won’t. I think people have to ask how many private school children the state sector can absorb without having to pay huge amounts into building new facilities. All the schools round us for example are at capacity with waiting lists.

Personally I’d have no issues whatsoever with paying higher fees and having more community cohesion if the resources were directed to the right place. Round here however it would mean we’d be working two jobs and living in a nice but not extravagant house to pay higher fees which would ultimately benefit affluent middle class outperforming religiously selective predominantly white state schools where many children have far more resources available to them because their parents made a different choice to us. If it went to an inner city school with a higher proportion of underprivileged children than locally, i think everyone who could afford it would fully support it.

Teachers in private schools have more time to prepare lessons etc as there are specialist music, PE, MFL teachers so they are not with their class all day (primary).
CPD is good - there is always budget. Safeguarding is the same for all schools - work with same LADO & use same materials - & compulsory for insurance.

I think the teaching is better
But that isn't because the teachers are better

I’m a partial product of private schooling, attended a boarding school for just three years where I completed my GCSEs and A Levels. I loved it, small classes, teachers who actually gave a shit, lots of sports and outdoor pursuits etc. Left the place with a sense of direction and a bit of focus as to what I wanted do with my life. My parents pulled me out of the local comp that had already massively let down my older sister and they did not want the same to happen to me and at considerable sacrifice sent me to boarding school. My father was a builder from Limerick and ran a small successful construction company, hardly 'old money' material.

What people frequently forget is that there are private schools and there are private schools.

Even within the independent sector there is rampant snobbery at play. Just because you want to public school does not mean you are a member of 'the club'. The vast majority of private schools are unheard of institutions that offer a well behaved teaching environment with small classes with some nice to have bolt ons in terms of extra curricular activities that your average comp does not offer (Duke of Endinburgh etc). I can say with some confidence that my old school 'tie' opened zero doors for me or gave me fast track preferential access to plum job roles. It did gave me decent grades though and a bit of ambition

Most of the parents of pupils at these schools are middle class professional types who don't have money to burn and have made sacrifices to see their kids get a good academic start. For the most part the kids are 'normal' for want of another expression.

Then you get the likes of Charterhouse, Eton College, Harrow, Rugby, Shrewsbury, Westminster and Winchester, now these are elite and pupils here are just as likely to lump the afore mentioned lesser independent school in with the comps as scum to be mocked. They cost well over £30 grand a year and thats before all the additional costs are thrown in. Yes the facilities and quality of teaching are excellent, but that is only part of what you are paying for, the real 'value' in these schools comes from the connections pupils form that serve them throughout life, the stupendous sense of entitlement that is instilled in the pupils from day one and generally membership of club that is not grounded in reality.

For what it is worth I think independent schools should lose their charitable status if they can't demonstrate that they are genuinely giving something back to the community in terms of offering multiple scholarships, opening up of facilities to the public or including local kids in the Duke of Edinburgh or outdoor pursuit activities.

The fact is though even if you banned public schools tomorrow the rich will find a way to educate their kids 'privately'. Do you really think the Earl of Chelsea and Lady Kensington are going to send Octavia and Batholomew to the local comp?

I have teacher friends who have taught in both private and state schools. They seem to prefer teaching in private schools because the pay and conditions are better from what I hear (longer holidays).

The fact its quite easy to switch between the two suggests the teachers are very much the same!

I don’t think changes to tax system/tightening of rules would make that much difference to the number of private schools.

Re: charitable status, some private schools aren’t charities anyway.

As far as I can work out the main taxes they avoid as charities are taxes on trusts. Some of these trusts have rather spurious claims to being charities (they don’t even pretend to benefit anyone outside the fee paying membership of the school), but the schools themselves wouldn’t need to change drastically if the rules on charities were enforced more strictly.

Re: VAT there might be closures in the short term, but schools would just adjust and cut their cloth according to the market.

Throughout much of the 20th century U.K. private schools had to compete with grammar schools, but they still survived.

@larrygrylls put it this way, if one of my kids were to leave the private sector before secondary age and let’s say 1) fees went up by 20%, all of which is redirected to govt and 2) my fees are £18,000 p/a, the the effect would be:

1. 1 additional place at state school, costing govt c. £5,000 a year which they don’t pay for me right now
2. 1 less person at private school, loss of £3,600 per year from additional fees.

That’s a net loss of £8,600 per year for every child who leaves private sector for state. So the cost of one child leaving the private system is 1.4 times the revenue per head that a levy of 20% would return.

My oldest went to an Independent school and I’m not going to justify my reasons for sending her there.

The local state school had a resident Police Officer on site, private school had a tennis coach. There were no unacceptable behaviour or disciplinary problems what-so-ever. Parents and pupils had to sign a contract agreeing to the standard of behaviour and conduct expected, if you broke it you were out. Gone. That included any child who was repeatedly foul mouthed or blatantly offensive …. Good Bye. Saw it happen.

Because there were no disruptive or abusive pupils the teachers were able to concentrate all their time and effort on teaching. That made a big big difference to the academic standard achieved. It also meant that the school had no problems with staff retention. The class sizes where not as small as you think, 20-25. Half the pupils were of South Asian background, many of their parents working two or even three jobs to pay for it.

Wider curriculum offered: my DD is pretty much fluent in Spanish and can play a musical instrument, and play it reasonably well.

No homework - school day 8:35 to 5:15. All meals provided, even breakfast if required.

Presentation from outside agencies were seen as key. Chinese Embassy Cultural Attache, representative from the European Union and spokesperson from the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation in London as an example.

I doubt the facilities were any better than in a good state school but sports included Golf, Squash and Rowing.

The downside is the cost. It is expensive but you are investing into your child's future. And yes, not much Estuary English spoken.

Purely my own experience but I think that some teachers have an expectation that certain kids in state schools will misbehave and cause trouble. A member of the SLT at an extremely well respected state school was complaining to me that since they’ve had to increase their quota of “premium kids” (their words) standards have dipped and results have gone down, followed by “what do people expect with premium kids”. I had to remind them that my DD is a “premium kid” and I certainly don’t expect lower standards for her. If state school teachers have low expectations, it doesn’t exactly bode well for kids achievement

Conifer,

Yes, if every child left! The reality is that the extra tax would apply to 100% of the pupils and around 15% would leave,

So for a school of 1,000 pupils, the extra tax would be circa £300,000 and the extra cost to state schools would be £75,000, a net gain of £225,000 for one medium size school.

As I said, I think that there are better solutions than removing the tax break which are win/win for all, but it is, effectively a tax break of £8,000 for the richest 1% of the population (assuming 2 children) and cannot just be called a distraction.

connifer the maximum cost of your switch is £5000 because you can’t include the loss of tax that you weren’t paying previously.