To think at a private school, it’s not the teachers that are better...

[Caitlin555]

....it’s just you are less likely to get the bad behaviour, and more likely to have smaller class sizes?

It drives me mad that there’s this perception that the teachers at private schools are so much better than at state. They are not. In fact, you don’t even need a teaching qualification to teach at a private school.

It is obviously easier to get good results and control a class when you’ve got a smaller class of (probably) better behaved, more affluent kids whose parents want them to be there and to not have the social problems that some schools contend with.

I wish parents would just be honest about why they are sending their kids to x private school - it might be the small class sizes, it might be the facilities, it might be that it is super selective - but don’t make it about the teachers as that’s an insult to those amazing teachers who work hard every day to make a difference at state schools.

And no, I’m not a teacher.

I might get criticised for this but I think you're buying the culture and nothing more.

how well can anyone know if teachers are good or not? We will never see them teach!

Well, the current situation has changed that for us!

I was at a private school and didn't think much of it. The kids were very rich and materialistic, very sneering and bitchy (boys included). There was so much focus on league tables, appearance, and getting kids into Oxbridge. Teachers were mixed - some excellent, some terrible, most mediocre. One used to just photocopy sections of a book and we'd all read out the text in class - that was the extent of the learning process for her A level politics class. I didn't take physics gcse because I knew there was a chance I'd get one particularly awful teacher who could make even the most fascinating subjects painfully dull.
I longed to go to the local girls' grammar school. That said I might have ended up hating it more. You never know.

Oh, and the point about diversity! That was very noticeable. The state school my children attended was almost entirely white (rural area). The private school has a very high proportion of BAME (predominantly Asian) children. I don’t think these are the children of hugely wealthy families- some parents I suspect are making huge sacrifices.

Are all the children of the overpaid people on the TV and in sport intelligent and well behaved, they all go to private schools, this doesn't seem possible.

I don’t know whether they all go to private school, but private school children have always taken drugs (they have the resources) and behaved badly (Bullingdon Club).

The difference is their parents have the resources to mop up the mess, and if push comes to shove the school can claim a zero tolerance policy and get rid.

@Gladysthesphinx ours is exactly the same, we are in an affluent Home Counties town. State school is almost entirely white. Both my children have more than half of their class from more diverse ethnic backgrounds including Asian, Chinese and African families (and before anyone starts I am not confounding this with social diversity, just making the point that there is cultural diversity).

Oh, and the point about diversity! That was very noticeable

Yes I agree with this in some places It’s not that the private schools are very diverse, but that in some areas state schools have no diversity at all.

I'd never, ever send my child to private school. I want them to mix with a diverse group of people who yes, might be different to them- isnt that what actual life is about?

My opinion of private schools from people who actually attended them as kids is very low- lots of bullying, classism and them being made to feel inferior all on the basis of money. No thanks.

[quote Arkestra]@DgraigGoch Michael Gove disagrees with you.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/private-schools-pay-tax-michael-gove-vat-boost-state-education-charity-status-funding-mic-a7597126.html[/quote]
You mean that a Brexiteer disagrees with a European Law? In other news, bears defecate in the woods.

I've got news for Mr Gove though, most of the kids at private schools aren't the offspring of "plutocrats and oligarchs", there are plenty of middle class professionals who send their kids private, not to mention some from the skilled working classes who work hard to afford £15k/yr. Bump up the fees by 20% by adding VAT and you will price all bar the super rich out.

I've never heard of private school teachers not needing a teaching qualification
I can assure you that in Scotland at least, they very much do.

I do know that bad behaviour in both schools is not tolerated.
Parents are very supportive as they know their child will be asked to make other arrangements at end of term if they don't toe the line.
Facilities are very good.
The teachers are highly qualified overwhelmingly very good.
There are however one or two know duds.

My children have friends that are very happy in the public system and have done well in them.

But we wanted these particular schools for our children.

@AlexisCarringtonColbyDexter gosh someone’s looking for a reaction

Most people send their children to the best school they can within their means and access, state or private surely. One way of judging this is by results. Private schools will normally get better results because pupils have to pass an entrance exam and the classes are smaller, it’s a no brainier. I’ve never seen or heard anyone say it’s because the teachers are better. It’s a lot easier to teach a small group of fairly academic children so I don’t know why anyone would think it’s down to the teachers being better. Maybe you know a lot of dim people OP.

Do all private schools have entrance exams

Do all private schools have entrance exams

No

Do all private schools have entrance exams

If they do, not all private schools ‘reject’ low scoring pupils.

Ddraig,

Lots of middle class people? It is a cheap private school at £15k per annum. Adding on the generally accepted 20-30% for extras (uniforms, lunches, trips etc) that makes 18k/annum. Most have two children (and some more) so that is 36k after tax, or around £60k of pre tax earnings.

No one without a family income of much less than £120k is even going to consider it. And £15k is outside London. In London fees will rarely be below £20k, so a household income of more like £150k. Bear in mind the national average income is £34k for full time workers...

There are families who make big sacrifices but, on the whole, most fee payers are already, in most people’s understanding of the word, rich.

Are there any top performing private schools that don’t have entry exams and also do not weed out?

I’m not against the former (I am the latter as I think it’s lazy on behalf of the school) but I cannot think of any in London.

It's not just the entrance exam though. To go to private school you have to be able to afford it. Affluence generally means educated parents who read and talk to their children from a young age. This in turn means their children are at an advantage before they start school.

To apply for bursary/free places, you have to know they are available in the first place. On the whole, parents in deprived areas don't even know they exist. Let alone how to apply. Then there are barriers in terms of parental confidence in sending the application and entering a world that is outside their comfort zone.

The best private schools have entrance exams, in order to even be considered children will be academically at the top of their game. Every place is coveted.

I adore my kids private school and will do everything I can to keep them there! The teachers are amazing but I also know lots of amazing state school teachers. The main difference is that the state school teachers have to fight very hard not to feel disillusioned and let down whereas for private school teachers I think motivation and joy in their work is easier.

Smaller class sizes and actually doing some proper sport where my main reasons for moving.

Private schools are different now, much more likely to be pastoral care focused and less pressure cooker.

I'm from a family of teachers, and DH has taught in private and public, in the UK, Europe and overseas. His opinion is that overall, the quality of teachers in private schools may be lower but due to smaller class sizes, fewer discipline problems, supportive / pushy parents, and better resources in the school, the attainment is clearly much higher. Private schools are all about the bottom line, and are able to employ unqualified teachers - which ranges from experienced teachers (just never formally trained) to new graduates with the right accent / presentation.

It's a bit of a badge of honour among state teachers that private school teachers are where they are because they couldn't hack it in a "real" school. I don't know if there's any truth in that. I do know that DH, while not being a natural for the private sector, found the discipline problems, huge classes, under-resourcing, and social problems of most state schools to be incredibly hard work. Private puts pressure on teachers too, but in different ways.

DH currently teaches in a private-ish section of a overseas school. He has said often that he couldn't go back to the state sector in the UK now. He can actually teach his students, has virtually no discipline issues, the families are well-motivated.

Maybe you know a lot of dim people OP.

And yes @WhentheDealGoesDown1 normally there are entrance exams, but not exclusively. An entrance exam also doesn’t always mean the school is highly selective. A school may be academically diverse but use exams to make sure they can meet the needs of the children they accepting, not simply that the children can meet the standards of the school. That’s simply because accepting a place and accepting a child is a choice not an obligation on both parts.

*were my main..

It's a bit of a badge of honour among state teachers that private school teachers are where they are because they couldn't hack it in a "real" school.

This is very sad to hear. Although it says more about the state school teachers than it does about the private schools to be honest.