Furlough holiday

[MrsQGinglass]

I am furloughed still and work for a large international company. There are only a few off us still furloughed 2 in my office only.

I received an informing me that all holiday from last year that was carried over would have to be used in the October. I know the reason why it is cheaper for them to get part of the government to pay it.
My issue is that those that have not been furloughed are allowed to carry over their holiday for the next 2 years.
I really do not think this is fair as they are treating us differently.
I have contacted HR for clarification but they have not answered my emails.
Is this lawful.
AIBUto think that they are treating us unfairly.

[quote OverTheRubicon]@MrsQGinglass that isn't fully fair. Some.self employed people paid dividends to save tax, but others did it because they were told to by employers - for example a lot of people in creative industries were asked by their contracting companies to incorporate, due to concerns around IR35. These people are not high-earning tax dodgers, and now they are left with pennies and Jo work coming in.

Even others that did go with this structure, the lower tax was often offset by lack of other benefits. Even someone paying themselves £50k in primarily dividends and sounding very well paid (at least, outside London) can end up worse off than someone in a public service job on £33k but with a final salary pension, paid sick leave, job security and redundancy rights etc.[/quote]
Wish there was a 'like' button!

I think I would be grateful to have a job to return to at this point, everyone I know who was furloughed has been made redundant.

I would just accept it at this point - people who have worked throughout probably couldn’t take time off and should be able to carry it over.

I bet you'd also back the longer maternity leave campaign. @Cassilis I thought exactly the same.

OP YABU for sure. I am sure you will have saved money in some ways by being at home and essentially having six months' pay for doing sweet FA.

@ajandjjmum would you have had the tax rebate anyway?

Sorry I have always been PAYE so mystified by it all. Was what the govt did unfair?

OP, nobody is saying that you can’t have holiday. We’re saying that your employer can decide whether you can carry it over, and that you should be flexible regarding that.

OP, why are you and not your working colleagues on furlough? Is it because you have less LOS? Or is your role not as essential?

I would be more concerned as to why I was on furlough and not others, to me it would be a sign that when the inevitable redundancies come around those on furlough will most likely be the 1st to be made redundant.

[quote Cassilis]@kirinm I think most sensible people realise furlough is not the fault of the furloughed employee, but given the number of women on MN who have juggled WFH and childcare I struggle to sympathise with OP on the annual leave issue.[/quote]
As a woman on MN who has also had to work and juggle childcare, I agree it was a really tough time. But I don't think that warrants the "sat on your bum", "doing nothing" comments. And there have been an awful of them.

Those that have worked have been allowed to take their holiday as planned

Here is your answer. The people working are taking holidays as planned, so chances are most will, on average, have less holiday to use than the furloughed employees who have not taken holidays as planned.

They've also been sitting there working knowing that you have been paid nearly full salary to do nothing. It's a 'grass is always greener' situation. You think they've had the better deal. They'll think you have.

Havaiana the government offered two grants through the self-employed income support scheme to people who are self-employed as eg sole traders.

It didn't include those set up as ltd companies. As pp say, some industries won't contract sole traders. You have to set up as a ltd company or you simply won't be offered any work.

It wasn't 'fair' on those set up as ltd companies, in the same way it wasn't fair on SE people who had only been SE a short time or who had had time off in the last three years for maternity/adoption leave (amount was based on the ave of last three years submitted tax returns). It was also unfair that there was a cap of max profit of £50,000 I think, when employed people could be furloughed on 80% of a much higher salary.

[quote Havaiana]@ajandjjmum would you have had the tax rebate anyway?

Sorry I have always been PAYE so mystified by it all. Was what the govt did unfair?[/quote]
They didn’t do anything unfair.

People that run their own Ltd companies often pay themselves a low salary and high dividends because they pay more take on the salary than they do on the dividends. It is quite legal for them to do so this, albeit it is common for people to pay themselves the absolute minimum in salary, rather than what the market rate for their occupation is in order to avoid (not evade) tax.

Dividends are a form of investment income, like bank interest. The government scheme was set up to cover salary costs for employers, not investment income. Therefore those people running their own Ltd company and had previously been paying themselves a minimal salary and high dividends, could only use the government scheme to recoup that minimal salary.

They cannot claim for lost “investment income” because the business can not afford to declare dividends. Any more than you or I could use the scheme to make a claim if my Aviva shares declare a disappointing dividend this year.

*more tax not “more take”

I really need to start using the preview button

[quote Havaiana]@ajandjjmum would you have had the tax rebate anyway?

Sorry I have always been PAYE so mystified by it all. Was what the govt did unfair?[/quote]
Yes we would, in that it was essentially tax that we had overpaid last year. HMRC get you to pay some tax in advance of earnings, on the assumption that you will earn the same each year, which is our case is not so. Although our earnings were down last year, we still had to pay the higher level tax contribution that had been due the previous year, and it was this overpayment that was refunded.

I don't think the Govt. have been really unfair - they've tried to cover everything, but we just fall between the cracks. Very disheartening, and will probably hasten our retirement - but that's life. Still have many things to be grateful for - including an understanding bank manager!

You have not been treated unfairly here OP.
You should just do as asked and try to see the bigger picture with this.

OP you're being ridiculous.

You can't expect to return to work with your full holiday entitlement intact, having been on furlough for 6 months.

Those still working would have used holiday during the period, as you would have done if you were still working.

Your employer can't have people coming off furlough with weeks of holiday entitlement. That is not fair.

NOTE, I am also on furlough and have been since April. My company has processed 20 days incl BH of my entitlement during that time up to the end of October, leaving me 8 days for November and December when I'm hopefully back in work.

Totally reasonable.

I was furloughed and I can understand where you are coming from. It wasn’t a six month long holiday for me by any stretch. It was really hard.

That’s said, I think you are being a bit unreasonable. Look at the big picture. 700,000 people off payroll since August. Many many more by the end of this month.

I really wouldn’t make a fuss about this if I were in your position. Which I’m not because I got made redundant.

You have just had months off on furlough, why would you expect to carry over holiday after that?

Err because she wouldn't have been able to go on holiday during that time, given she could be called back to work at any given moment.

Florencex

There used to be a definite tax advantage in taking your income as dividends rather than salary, but the difference is now negligible.

Bit like a company car - used to be a massive tax advantage, and is now a liability.

Our reason for drawing dividends is that we can adapt our drawings according to the amount of business coming in at any given time. At the end of a project, we can draw a dividend payment based upon how profitable (or not) the project has been.

Of course it's lawful

And yes, you're being treated differently, as are those that have had to work during this time and weren't furloughed.

I'm struggling to see why you're feeling annoyed about all this. Surely in these times you should be thankful you've still got a job and also been furloughed. Both myself and my dh have worked flat out during this time, we've not been able to take time off due to workloads and being short staffed due to some coworkers being furloughed. I'd be spitting feathers if I wasn't allowed to carry holidays over. Especially whilst some people have had 6 months off, then comeback and take holidays! I even had one lady I work with complain to our manager she couldn't take a days holiday off as I'd already booked it, she's only just come back after being furloughed in March.

Speak to your union if you are a member or acas if you are concerned.
They can make you take pro rota amount of holiday for the time you are furloughed provided you are paid 100%. They can't make you take an entire years annual leave allowance during the furlough period - if you have only been furloughed for 6 months- they can make you take half of it ( as long as they top up furlough so you are paid 100% of salary) You should also be paid 100% for bank holidays .
It is lawful to make you take proportionate leave when on furlough at full pay.

Err because she wouldn't have been able to go on holiday during that time, given she could be called back to work at any given moment

They could have taken holiday from their entitlement during furlough

Thanks @christinarossetti19 @Florencex @ajandjjmum

Very interesting. I feel for you @ajandjjmum , sounds like you got a bum deal.

Well, at least we can all agree that the self-employed men who under-declared earnings to pay less child maintenance got their comeuppance!

But you are on furlough surely you can go on holiday whenever. It would be absurd to give you months and months of time off work on 80% pay (while others have to work) and not count any of it as your normal holiday. Surely you would have used some between march & october?!

I understand you didn't want to be furloughed but to say you'd rather be made redundant just because of 10 days holiday. Its ignorant and you're only thinking of yourself, sorry :/

OP: Is this allowed?

Everyone: Yes.

OP: But it's not fair.

Everyone: Yes it is.

OP: no it's not! We're being treated differently.

Everyone: No you're not.

OP: Argues some more.

Grow up. You still have a job. You've been getting paid for doing nothing rather than being made redundant instead for the past however many months. Asking you to use some of your accrued holiday time while you're still on furlough is not unreasonable and within the rules.

Perhaps people should read the holiday was not from last year but the holiday period during furlough.

people have read, why do you think this should make any kind of difference?

We get it, you have had enough rest, you picture yourself back at work for a short time with more holidays to look forward to. It sounds like a nice plan, but really, let's go back to the real world shall we.