To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

3 points

I think it’s about not being ignorant to our history rather than atoning for it. We do not recognise in this country the terrible things that were deliberately done in our name. It is not taught in schools and we as a people are woefully ill informed. FGS some guide units still celebrate empire day.

I also think some of the government rhetoric like for instance this use of “world beating” is designed to hark back to days of empire. Along with the daily hates constant articles designed to stir up those who would like to see us as “Britannia rules the waves” anti black, anti migrant anti anything but proud white British has a lot of people shaking there heads and saying how dare you ignore your terrible part in history.

Our parliament are currently looking at breaking international law and negating the Good Friday Agreement. This is unbelievable, it will cause a resurgence of terrorism in Ireland, my BIL who is Irish said to me that “we will never learn and then will act surprised when bombs start flying again”. We haven’t learnt and we still ride roughshod over laws when we want. So of course people get cross.

Others will probably know the details better than I do, but my understanding is that new information is still coming out about the dark side of the British Empire. As I understand it, we’ve only become aware in the last few years of the extent to which records and documents were deliberately destroyed in the 20th Century in order to avoid making the Empire look bad. We can’t just skip to the stage where it’s all in the past and you’re not supposed to talk about it, not if we’ve avoided having a full reckoning with the truth and accepting the bad stuff that was done.

I disagree. Children at Kings College in Wimbledom are told the Blitz. They barely go into the rest of WWII. Shocking

What age are they? We were taught abut the blitz and evacuees in primary school. We got into Nazi Germany and the holocaust in year 8 and 9, if I remember. It was a long time ago!

Those who like to dismiss the Empire as ‘people from a different time with different morals’... at what point do you think these ‘different morals’ changed?! Would love to know when and why you think this decisive ethical turning point occurred - 1947? 1963? 1997?! Do you really believe the worldviews that motivated colonial expansion and exploitation have no impact on our society today?

BiBabbles that was a sensible post.

@Carycy

I do find it odd that it’s acceptable to constantly stir up hate for the British empire but no one is allowed to bring up the Nazis any more.

Who isn’t allowing you to bring up Nazis? I used to live in Germany and I guarantee you that not a day would go by without foreigners (lots from the UK!) talking to Germans about Hitler and the war, I have had countless chats with germans about the war, germans in Berlin are extremely vocal about how anti-Nazis they are (considering there are still some Nazis pockets in Berlin) and take massive actions against Nazis. Germany has done A LOT to repair their wrongdoings during the war (when I was there two tourists got arrested for doing the Nazi salute as a joke), including by providing Jewish people with an easy access to German citizenship, are all their reparative actions enough to erase the genocide of 6 millions people? No. Will it ever be? Absolutely not. Does it mean that germans should forever feel shame? I don’t think so, but I have yet to see germans feel shame about the criticize their receive. They understand that they didn’t cause it, they don’t agree nor identify with it (for the most part) and don’t feel the need to carry a shame that isn’t theirs but they definitely take it as their duty to be part of the reparation process and every German I have met and talked to understood that for that to happen they have to take the criticism and listen to what pain their ancestors inflicted on others and not use it feel shame but as a motor to do and be better.

The British empire is being targeted because it has done fuck all (or very little) to even try and repair it’s wrong-doings and British folks are (as shown on this thread) unwilling to hear and discuss how the British empire negatively impacted people but more importantly STILL negatively impacts people today and accept that while it may not be their shame (and they shouldn’t necessarily carry it) it is their duty as people who have and are (!) benefiting from this empire to be part of the reparation and healing process. Instead you have Brexit which is another clear-cut way of Britain wanting to show off that they absolutely don’t value allyship and hate nothing more than having to ever be part of any alliance where they would dare be requested to give a bit more than they receive (not an outrageous request when the UK has benefited from everyone’s wealth and resources for centuries) and would rather leave it in a uff and self-harm with a potential no-deal, happily sacrificing Northern Ireland (yet again) and international treaties too just to feel this sense of British pride and independence again because despite having ruled and forced their will upon others for centuries, happily dislodging people from their home and families, they suddenly find it intolerable to have the EU have any sort of say in British affairs and for foreigners to be able to migrate so easily.

I am of those who are hyper critical of the British empire as I am of my own empire (French) because those are empires who are responsible of inequalities TODAY and should be held accountable as such. France is also extremely good at brushing over the bad parts and trying to instill a sense of pride in the French empire and Napoleonian Era. It’s disgusting and while I feel shame on behalf of my French ancestors I don’t feel shame on a personal level because I like to think that I am actively participating in reversing the outcome of the French empire, at my scale, but I would feel thorough shame if when the atrocities of French people are mentioned and pointed out to me (as they should) I chose to play deaf, use the excuse of “it was a different era” (some of my family members who are still alive were very much alive and thriving when India still belonged to England, Algeria to France etc... so it wasn’t a different era. In the case of my family some were resistant during WW2 and then went on to fight for France against Algeria 10 years later. So it’s more a case of having a blinded love and pride in one’s country to the point that whatever benefit said country is blindly the way to go irrelevant of humanity rather than not understanding right and wrong nor the consequences of certain acts and it being a different era.

When Hitler invaded Poland, in 1939 and France and the British empire watched in horror neither of them chose to free the countries that were still under their reign, some countries only gained their full independence from the British empire in the 80’s. Plenty of mumsnetters where very much alive and thriving and likely unaware in the 80’s. The British empire and its problematic is very much current and cannot possible compared to the Roman Empire in terms of current consequences and current impact.

Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

As an Irish person, I can assure you the British empire did not improve our living standards.

Just because other countries with empires behaved poorly, does not justify the appalling behaviour of the British in their empire. The empire is nothing to be proud of. In Ireland, for example, the native Irish had their land stolen, were forced into poverty, their culture suppressed, and were murdered and starved. Many other countries have the same story to tell.

[quote RustyBear]@CuriousAboutSamphire - but why is Islas Malvinas a more valid name than Falkland Islands?[/quote]
It isn't. I was agreeing with you about the changes over time!

I should have added a smiley face and a shoulder shrug!

Sorry!

The Sandman the Falklands were uninhabited when discovered. The French got there first in fact. Britain and Argentina have been fighting over it since the 1700s, but it wasn't a place inhabited by Argentinians initially, so their claim was about empire building as much as Britain's was. At some point though, it becomes the belonging of the people who live there.
It's not comparable to a house occupied by squatters.

@KeepOnMovingForwards

I disagree. Children at Kings College in Wimbledom are told the Blitz. They barely go into the rest of WWII. Shocking

What age are they? We were taught abut the blitz and evacuees in primary school. We got into Nazi Germany and the holocaust in year 8 and 9, if I remember. It was a long time ago!

Talking about year 8 then left King

[quote RustyBear]@CuriousAboutSamphire - but why is Islas Malvinas a more valid name than Falkland Islands?[/quote]
It isn't. I was agreeing with you about the changes over time!

I should have added a smiley face and a shoulder shrug!

Sorry!

Posted too soon.

But knew people in GSCE years and parents said much the same

I knew the British role in the triangular trade as a child. Some people attempt to peel through layers of historical writing and some accept. It depends how much critical thinking people have, I’m sure some are just more inclined to have that as a thought process. Many people are too busy just trying to pay their bills, it why movements are often though not always led by the middle classes.

Having been a trade union activist for many years it is true that many left wing political organisations do hijack any current campaigns. I’m not saying they don’t believe in what is being campaigned for and that they do sometimes do good work but they do push their own agenda from within. Plus the left has hidden and often open misogyny.

The term woke wasn’t about at the height of my activism but I did feel suspicious that some white people within those left wing movements who had become trade union reps wanted to be my mate because I wasn’t white. Because they were always so desperate to display what I suppose is wokeness. An example would be literature and poetry if mentioned in any context Maya Angelou and Trevor Phillips would be brought up immediately as their favourites. I love Maya Angelou’s writing but my fave poets are dead white men.

I had a student apologise to me once as our countries have a history of horrific bloody wars between them forever and also in living memory. My grandparents had to flee for their lives. Her home country have enslaved people from my Fathers home country. I am all for a truthful history but that woman had no reason to apologise to me so I let the British side come out and took her for a cream tea. Poor woman seemed to think I should hate her, this is higher education and she was actually writing her PhD on a specific part of those enslavements.

I also had quite a few German colleagues and they described their nations shared guilt. Let’s always have honest and open discussion about history to try and avoid future misery, but why feel guilty. I don’t believe in being burdened by the sins of the Fathers.

I think this thread proves that the Empire and its legacy is very poorly understood. Grown adults on here have claimed (I assume with a straight face) that we're "not allowed to talk about the Nazi's anymore" and that people are being oppressed by white people with placards in the name of ethnic minorities and equated that oppression with the many, varied and on going harms done to British Empire colonies.
Teaching the Empire properly, removing the jingoistic, flag waving nonsense and giving a proper overview of the legacy of Empire - which may well include discussions about the benefits, as there are some good arguments to be made for the benefits of the British Empire. Whether those benefits are vastly outweighed by the harm done and whether those benefits brought by Empire could have happened in a less bloody way could be a good basis for teaching.
There are other Empires that also have terrible legacies - I studied the Ottoman Empire mentioned above for A Level for example and it's easier to teach and discuss them in a more dispassionate way because our schools arent named after the perpetrators of their massacres and our town halls weren't built using the wealth created by those Empires.
There is also a good argument to be made that Empires throughout human history have spread knowledge and advanced humanity as a whole (always with a real human cost to be paid). Early written language was spread by Empires for example and the Roman Empire famously took roads, sewer systems and education to the outposts of their Empires. There is also a lot of evidence that the advancements that these ancient empires brought with them receded rapidly when the Empires fell. Looking at post colonial history in many of the countries that were part of the empire can we say that the benefits of empire people talk about are as long lasting there as they are in the UK? The legacy of empire still gives us a seat at the table with countries far more powerful than we currently are and has given us vast wealth that still bolsters our economy today. I dont think it's a big ask to acknowledge the legacy of the British Empire is massively weighted in the favour of the British.

@Bubblesgun

Posted too soon.

But knew people in GSCE years and parents said much the same

That's awful. Maybe because it's an independent school? I'm fairly sure that the holocaust is still part of the National Curriculum.

Have you actually read primary sources from the time of the Empire? Or the slave trade? Or... any historical event?

People then knew colonisation was wrong. They knew slavery was wrong. The people in power largely ignored it and ploughed on. Just like today people know it's a fucking disgrace for people to be starving and homeless, but many rich and powerful people do fuck all to change it.

I have heard so many people( of all races) say that the slavery and the history of the British Empire should be taught in schools and after reading some of the posts in this thread , I can see why.
What people fail to understand is the fact that the actions of the British Empire still affect our lives today. No one is saying that the white indigenous population should feel guilty for the actions of their ancestors.
People are just pointing out that the structures put in place by the British Empire in their colonies has caused and continues to cause issues.

@newsyoucanuse

The issue is it isn’t being looked at critically at all, if anything the British Empire seems to be held up as something great, something to be proud of. And as far as I can tell. British children ( outside of Northern Ireland) have not been taught about the near genocide committed by the British government of their subjects in Ireland during the famines. Most English people I know have no clue that it was a ‘false’ famine. Then you have this ignorance repeated For India, Africa, Palestine etc etc etc

True..I'm English, and assumed the potato crop failed due to the Blight... and that there was nothing else to eat because of monoculture...Which seemed odd. It was horrifying to learn the real reasons. The wealthy had plenty to eat Vast swathes of Ireland were owned by English or Anglo Irish absentee landlords.. It was never mentioned in our school history lessons {London, UK}. Empires plunder natural resources and don't really give much back. 'Railways in India' is often cited. SMH.

Children at Kings College in Wimbledom are told the Blitz. They barely go into the rest of WWII. Shocking.

It is, and I hope their parents are educating them about the rest of it to compensate. A friend of mine many years ago was sacked from a private school after parental complaints because, in addition to teaching her pupils about Maoism and 20th century Chinese history, she also explained Marxist Communism and how it was not straightforward to talk about 'communism' as a single political theory with universal effect. She was told she'd tried to indoctrinate her pupils.

Is it not about understanding the horrors of empire not so much to apologise for the actions of our predecessors, but to learn, to rebalance the injustice and to make all people of equal value going forwards?

The consequences of empire is a sense of white supremacy amongst many who fear making other people equal will make them less equal. They are too corrupt or too stupid to understand equality improves the lives of everyone. Empire was about white supremacy and imposing a culture of ‘our way or no way’ through violence and asset stripping. It cannot ever be celebrated but can be understood.

I struggle feeling St George’s cross wearing, LoHG singers who don’t know the words and Farage are of equal value but I know that’s something I must work on to ensure all people are of equal value- even if their horrendously racist views are not.

In Australia the British Empire set up a colonial system that still harms people today, in particular the countries original inhabitants. Of course it should be questioned, it is still at work and needs to be dismantled.

@Boom45

I think this thread proves that the Empire and its legacy is very poorly understood. Grown adults on here have claimed (I assume with a straight face) that we're "not allowed to talk about the Nazi's anymore" and that people are being oppressed by white people with placards in the name of ethnic minorities and equated that oppression with the many, varied and on going harms done to British Empire colonies. Teaching the Empire properly, removing the jingoistic, flag waving nonsense and giving a proper overview of the legacy of Empire - which may well include discussions about the benefits, as there are some good arguments to be made for the benefits of the British Empire. Whether those benefits are vastly outweighed by the harm done and whether those benefits brought by Empire could have happened in a less bloody way could be a good basis for teaching. There are other Empires that also have terrible legacies - I studied the Ottoman Empire mentioned above for A Level for example and it's easier to teach and discuss them in a more dispassionate way because our schools arent named after the perpetrators of their massacres and our town halls weren't built using the wealth created by those Empires. There is also a good argument to be made that Empires throughout human history have spread knowledge and advanced humanity as a whole (always with a real human cost to be paid). Early written language was spread by Empires for example and the Roman Empire famously took roads, sewer systems and education to the outposts of their Empires. There is also a lot of evidence that the advancements that these ancient empires brought with them receded rapidly when the Empires fell. Looking at post colonial history in many of the countries that were part of the empire can we say that the benefits of empire people talk about are as long lasting there as they are in the UK? The legacy of empire still gives us a seat at the table with countries far more powerful than we currently are and has given us vast wealth that still bolsters our economy today. I dont think it's a big ask to acknowledge the legacy of the British Empire is massively weighted in the favour of the British.

@ Boom45

From what you are saying, i think the problem is of twofold.

The Empire (whichever one) or lets call them the power in place, didnt want to leave the country they were occupying for various reasons ie. geostrategic, economic, military, etc. Hence an independance war or unrest arised.

So, at the wake when the power in place HAS to leave and gove independance, they leave with their technological knowledge.

Because they were the power, to remain there they give the skills technological, educational and economical to the people who were part of the elite / power so that the native people could not be independent, they were deliberately kept in an inferior status.

And when the power left, the newly independant country had to learn from scratch. This is why, i believe, we witnessed a receeding economy and even civil wars in some newly independant nations.

Without the transfer of technology decolonisation is doomed to fail.

You want, say, the Rwandan genocide of 1994, which had its roots in French colonialism, to be seen in the same way as the Roman Empire?

Try telling that to people whose babies were thrown into wells just a couple of decades ago.

Colonialism echoes across many nations today; we can't get away from that and nor should we try. Civil wars still run in countries ravaged by colonial rule; if we had never been there much of the world would be extremely different, and we'll never know in which ways it might have been better for the citizens of those nations.

@northstars

I’m Indian and would like to know what “positive acts” you think the Empire committed in South Asia? India was exploited and looted by the British, and events such as the Jallianwala Massacre and the Bengal famine were horrific. For Britain to face the reality of the Empire is long overdue and not a bad thing at all. Most people I speak to here seem to know very little about it (you seem much the same)

I agree the romanticism of the British Indian relationship during the empire completely hazes over what really happened and how India was raped and pillaged literally and metaphorically by first the east India trading company and then ‘Great’ Britain. The Indian lives lost in the world wars is abominable and rarely discussed. The book Inglorious Empire really enlightening my Empire thinking.

Lots of interesting points here to think about.

However some of the Holocaust points here aren't fully correct. Many people only know about the concentration camps but not about the Holocaust of bullets in the earlier part of the war nor the immense use of slave labour by the Germans across the whole of the war.

Whilst there were concentration camps from 1933 onwards ( the nazis started using them before the war to quieten any dissent) they weren't turned into systematic killing prisons with gas chambers until 1941/2. Up until then, approx 1.5m people were shot, (mainly from Eastern Europe and Jewish or Roma) often they had to dig vast trenches first, then line up on the edge, were shot, fell in and the next lot to be executed were in the line behind.

The Germans had 12/15 million forced labourers (as they called them) from the countries they invaded in Europe and Russia. The number varies as so many in the early days died and weren't recorded. Many died as a result of their living & working conditions – extreme mistreatment, malnutrition. It's thought that at one point 'forced labourers' comprised 20% of the German work force. Many at the end of the war were taken by the Russians and their fate unknown but unlikely to be a happy ending.

This is far more recent than the Empire (which I'm not defending plus I'm Irish!) but it's not well known, well taught any where including Germany - I lived in Frankfurt for a while due to work - and I'd go as far as to say they actively try to gloss over this part of their recent history - not all but there's definitely that feeling and I was told by many Germans that they're not taught this but focus on the Berlin war era and their east/west struggles when doing this in schools.

Plus there were many other empires that only declined at the same time as the British, in fact the Portuguese Empire was the first global empire, lasted 6 centuries and only ended in 1999 when Portuguese Macau was handed to the Chinese in 1999