To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

YANBU.
I’m less concerned about historical events than the current atrocities committed around the world.

@CuriousaboutSamphire the additional part of your post doesn’t actually change the meaning of it though, as you’re implying that the in-depth long term research hasn’t been done, and that today’s voices aren’t drawing on it when they speak. You seem to be suggesting it should be done. It has been. It continues to be.

I think if it is OK to make a big fuss about singing Land of Hope and Glory and Rule Britannia then it is fair enough to also know about the other side. If people don't want to know about the bad stuff then stop pushing the pride in what was done down our throats.

@Straven123

People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc

I read recently that most people think their family is 'special' - just a bit more sensible, intelligent etc than the average. I certainly did as a child. So carrying that into a view of your country would be quite possible imv. Don't the French believe many of their ways of life are superior to ours, in the past many Americans certainly thought everything was bigger and better over there.
I would imagine with our reasonably trustworty authorities, non corrupt institutions we can have some pride in our country. Compared to many countries our way of life is fairer, easier. We are entitled to be proud imv.

Yeah, every country has the right to take pride in its culture and history. Empire strips that from a lot of them.

There isn’t an indigenous population of any colony that benefited from the British empire.

In America, Australia and NZ white British settlers committed genocide and to all extents and purposes still rule these territories. They just are ruled from London.

All the rest of the colonies suffered and continued to suffer from policies that deliberately created poverty and destitution for the majority of the population. In many cases this led to starvation. The benefits, wealth and improvements in standard of living, all accrued to the British and the favoured few elite.

The wealth and privilege of Britain today comes from suffering of others. As does the easy acceptance of inequity and unfairness that ruins our own society today.

@Mintychoc1

YANBU. I’m less concerned about historical events than the current atrocities committed around the world.

Many of which are the legacy of Empire of course.

I mentioned the holocaust because there are few threads about it on MN discussing the reparations Germany is making or the shame the Germans should feel about it.
It is well known about - movies, tv etc, but where is the complaints about them not showing enough regret, or whatever.

I doubt you'd get Merkel on TV moaning that they aren't singing Nazi songs at big musical events in Germany, I haven't heard many Germans expressing pride in the third reich. Contrast that with what happens here. As I said before if you want the pride in good things that were done then you have to accept the criticism about the bad things.

We can condemn all empires, sure. But the BE committed horrendous acts of genocide and slavery and those have to be looked at and discussed unflinchingly, without constant whataboutery. The empire is still glorified by people in the UK and it absolutely shouldn't be.

@msflibble

We can condemn all empires, sure. But the BE committed horrendous acts of genocide and slavery and those have to be looked at and discussed unflinchingly, without constant whataboutery. The empire is still glorified by people in the UK and it absolutely shouldn't be.

Condemning all empires isn’t meant to be a get out for the British Empire. Not on my part anyway. It’s a starting point, and gets us away from a whole heap of whataboutery.

You need to read inglorious empire by Shashi Tharoor and watch the recent BBC documentary on the last Maharajah get a little bit of context.

@sst1234

This left wing self loathing based on historical events does nothing to change the real issues facing the oppressed today. And the fact that it’s done in the name of ethnic minorities by placard waving white people, just looking for a ‘cause’ is quite frankly more offensive than the cause itself. If you think people from ethnic minorities live their lives feeling resentful about the empire, then you are seriously deluded. Same with BLM, it has been hijacked by Marxists, and others feel compelled to join in. You can be anti racist and not get taken in by this nonsense to advance a different political agenda.

A lot of assumptions in this statement.

giving the Daily Mail more anti-British stuff to rant about is not the way to go.

Did you mean the Daily Mail ?

What sort of anti-British stuff are they ranting about @Straven123 ?

@Bumpitybumper

In a way, I agree with you. I love history and I think it must be taught through and not erased, but it must be taught through today’s lenses ie. this was a time when the white thought that the colour of skin defined you etc.
We watched Gone with the wind, hidden figures, 42, etc with our children and kept pausinf the movies to explain the context.

But, and it is a big but. It is important that the governments of countries that were involved in genocides or atrocities committed during the time of imperialism and colonialism apologise. That is VERY important.

So for instance, starting using the real name Islas Malvinas instead of Falkland Islands, apologising for the empire part in slavery, and recognising that the Commonwealth is outdated, to name but a few 😉

I do find it odd that it’s acceptable to constantly stir up hate for the British empire but no one is allowed to bring up the Nazis any more.

[quote Dailyhandtowelwash]@CuriousaboutSamphire the additional part of your post doesn’t actually change the meaning of it though, as you’re implying that the in-depth long term research hasn’t been done, and that today’s voices aren’t drawing on it when they speak. You seem to be suggesting it should be done. It has been. It continues to be.[/quote]
That isn't what I intended to write, I think you may have focussed on one part of one sentence and based you understanding on that, rather than the post as a whole!

But yes, you are right I am implying that many speak without knowledge. That they base their opinions, understandings on misinformation despite all the research that has been done. My point was that that historical understanding takes time... and in the interim many half truths and lies become 'known facts' that are hard to debunk!

Plenty of non-white historians out there who’ve been writing on this subject for a very long time. Even non-British ones believe it or not.

@Bumpitybumper might I suggest the OU have some free courses on this subject? Lots of recommended further reading.

Well the difference is that it was so recent. We cant go discuss slavery with the Egyptian pharaohs. But people who took part in Britain's atrocities are still alive. People who suffered are still alive. It is still remembered and felt and honestly Britain has far too much pride in our "Empire" its not a good thing. And people need to accept that.
But we still commit atrocities as with other countries, America is the worlds bully and we it's right hand man. What we do to countries that have valuable oil is sickening. And then we dare complain when the innocent citizens of those countries we destroyed want to find refuge here.

Oh do fuck off

I think this is an interesting discussion but a very difficult one to have without offence taken and judgements made.

Yes I think that we do need to acknowledge the wrongs done to people throughout the British empire.

I would agree that Germany has done a lot to deal with their history, however, recently I have seen a lot a distancing in this; language used often separates Germany from nazi Germany. Also, I would argue that Austria has not confronted their nazi past to the same extent? (My grandmother is Austrian).
The expansion of the British empire was fuelled from the 1750s by the industrial revolution which I think helped feminism, making women more independent and helping us on our long path to suffrage and rights.
I would argue that tenant farmers and factory workers throughout Britain during the British empire reign were effectively slaves.

I was listening to a radio 4 programme a few years ago (think it was start the week) and there was a brilliant young woman whose ancestors were slaves from Africa who had written about it; she was asked by another guest what did she think her life would be like if her ancestors had not been forced into slavery but had remained in Africa? I was quite shocked, but it led to an interesting and frank discussion which I don’t think would take place today. It did smack a bit of ‘be grateful’ which was distasteful, but which unfortunately I still see this with working class people who question today; be grateful we’ve got the nhs, social services, education, roads, energy, etc....

@Dailyhandtowelwash

Plenty of non-white historians out there who’ve been writing on this subject for a very long time. Even non-British ones believe it or not.

Yes but it needs to be taught better. We need to look at our history from an early age and see what Britain did and why it was wrong why being in a long line of empire builders is only good in a “well they did it first so it’s ok” kind of way rather than a reasonable explanation. “He did it first miss!!!” I do hate cancel culture though we have to also look at the fact that our lives are as privileged as they are probably because of the problems with the ‘Empire’.

This is an interesting article about how the Belgians are dealing with some of these issues.

bwiseaftertheevent.wixsite.com/aftertheevent/single-post/2019/10/17/The-Royal-Museum-of-Central-Africa-in-Tervuren-Belgium-A-successful-metamorphosis

@Carycy

I do find it odd that it’s acceptable to constantly stir up hate for the British empire but no one is allowed to bring up the Nazis any more.

Stir up hate? So what is it about the empire that we should love? And who says we're not allowed to mention the Nazis any more? There are countless programmes all over my television about WW2.

One thing that is often forgotten in all this is that many of us and our ancestors actually had little influence.

At the time of the Potato famine my ancestors were illiterate workers who didn't have a vote.

I have a vote - but I didn't vote for this government or indeed any Tory, ever.

Lumping us all together as the Evil English ignores that there have always been people who were either disenfranchised, dissenters, or both.

The Empire was created by and run for the wealthy elite. Not much has changed.

@Mintychoc1

YANBU. I’m less concerned about historical events than the current atrocities committed around the world.

You can't understand a lot of those atrocities without understanding their historical contexts, though. In many cases (the Middle East, Kashmir and the tensions between India and Pakistan), they are imperial legacies.