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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

703 replies

Bumpitybumper · 18/09/2020 07:14

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

OP posts:
RustyBear · 18/09/2020 08:48

So for instance, starting using the real name Islas Malvinas instead of Falkland Islands

Except that the name Islas Malvinas is a name given to the islands by Spanish imperialists, based on the name given by French imperialists.

Dailyhandtowelwash · 18/09/2020 08:48

@geekone I totally agree. Although as I learned about the sugar/slave triangle at school in the 80s, including the British role in it, I am always rather depressed when these threads fill with people who didn’t cover it at all in school. I’ve also been able to study Empire - by no means just British - which is fascinating and would be great for kids to learn about. Sadly Gove pushed them back into 1066 and All That territory. It’s no surprise that the story of colonialism was told for so long by the colonisers but there have been many other voices speaking for a very long time and they need to be heard.

The fact that so many posters on here appear to think that the British Empire has been above criticism until 2020 tells us a lot.

SuddenArborealStop · 18/09/2020 08:49

I never used to think about the empire in anything but historical terms but when you see the general attitude with brexit etc you realise things haven't really changed and GB politically would probably still go for an empire if they thought they'd get away with it.

Livelovebehappy · 18/09/2020 08:49

Absolutely agree with you, but you’re banging your head against a brick wall if you think you can get many mumsnetters to agree with you. I’ve said a trillion times, what happened in previous centuries were not done in my name, and I therefore refuse to apologise or feel ashamed because of something my ancestors did before me. People didn’t know any different, and acted in accordance with the times they lived in.

Hingeandbracket · 18/09/2020 08:51

@SuddenArborealStop

I never used to think about the empire in anything but historical terms but when you see the general attitude with brexit etc you realise things haven't really changed and GB politically would probably still go for an empire if they thought they'd get away with it.
Our voting system really doesn't reflect people's wishes, but the politicians don't want to change it.
Hingeandbracket · 18/09/2020 08:52

@Livelovebehappy

Absolutely agree with you, but you’re banging your head against a brick wall if you think you can get many mumsnetters to agree with you. I’ve said a trillion times, what happened in previous centuries were not done in my name, and I therefore refuse to apologise or feel ashamed because of something my ancestors did before me. People didn’t know any different, and acted in accordance with the times they lived in.
Exactly - I have the benefit of knowing that all that shit wasn't even done in my ancestor's names because they were not even party to it.
turnitonagain · 18/09/2020 08:54

The Mau Mau Uprising in Kenya where British soldiers detained raped and beat thousands of local people was in the late 1950s - that’s in my parents’ lifetime.

Crack open a history book, this isn’t ancient history.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 18/09/2020 08:55

@RustyBear

So for instance, starting using the real name Islas Malvinas instead of Falkland Islands

Except that the name Islas Malvinas is a name given to the islands by Spanish imperialists, based on the name given by French imperialists.

Ah come on Rusty!!!

Pick ONE MOMENT IN TIME and stick with it why doncha!?!?!

That's yet another of the zetigeist vs history things.

What you believe depends on which bit of history you started with!

Straven123 · 18/09/2020 08:55

What sort of anti-British stuff are they ranting about @Straven123**

I meant they are being encouraged by what can be seen as anti-British stuff such as their Save the Last Night of the Proms Petition.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 18/09/2020 08:56

No country comes out of history well. Certainly not if you apply modern values to people who thought entirely differently about morality.
These things are cyclical - as one power fades another rises to take it's place. That's how humans have always worked - we were on top for a while, then the USA was and now it's a declining superpower and China is emerging as dominant. Britain was no better or worse than any other country. It did some terrible things and it did some good things.
There's no value in trying to make the current population feel bad about things they didn't do. Most of our ancestors were dirt poor and had little influence over their own lives, let alone over the wealthy establishment who were screwing them over along with other poor people in the empire.
We view our history along national lines but really it should be along class ones. The wealthy elite always do okay - who is still sitting on all that wealth because it certainly isn't me!
Equally, feeling pride in the empire is equally moronic.
I think the problem here is that teaching history has never been seen as important enough to devote curriculum time to. The only people who ever get to do more than scratch the surface are those who do A level or degree study. People rarely choose this because it's been so undervalued (and often boringly taught, with the most dry topics selected in years 7-9) and it isn't seen as commercial compared to maths or science.

BiBabbles · 18/09/2020 08:57

While I agree that sometimes things go too far into the historical and theoretical of what could be rather than dealing with practical issues of now and dealing with them (some of which are connected to some Empires more than older ones), I don't get why it's surprising or something to be wary of that British people would hear far more about the British Empire than other empires, and would have a lot more opinions and emotions about it compared to other empires.

I grew up in the US, we learned fuckall about the British empire after 1812, heard fuckall about it outside brief mentions in the world wars and trade. There were a lot of emotions around American expansionism and American imperialism, but British stuff was discussed academically, if at all. That's generally how things like this work, I would think. In more recent colonies, you probably get more emotions and information. In other countries, the British Empire is a footnote, if that.

It's not that you're especially targetted, it'd that you hear more about yourselves than other people - except when those in power want to hide some shite, then they like to point fingers elsewhere (see anything to do with Civil Rights, British resources can point to the US and other former colonies all damn day then while ignoring the UK's own history. My kids can be taught songs about Rosa Parks, but mentions of British activists and race issues seem to be loudly missing).

Yeah, historical education could be more well-rounded, but there is a limit to what can be taught so we have to prioritize. I would think more would prioritize the British Empire over the Mongol Empire even with the impacts still felt today in parts of Central Asia.

It's wrong to hold the Empire up to modern standards and suggests other Empires are exempt as they were a few hundred years earlier.

People judge and weigh up what they know of the past by both modern legal and ethical standards and personal moral standards. People were doing that even back in the Roman time periods, most of our writing on Sparta are people writing about it centuries after it become a tourist attraction (because they didn't really do much creating themselves). They made a lot of judgements on it but their own standards and whichever tinted view of it (and their own tinted views of their own cultures) they had.

We also judge now with the same thing - there are tons of conversations about how other countries and our own are either horrible or great based on our own legal and ethical standards & personal moral standards.

There might be annoying disagreements about it and it might not always be the best use of time or emotional energy, but I can't see what's 100% wrong about discussing the negatives - then and ramifications now - of the British Empire anymore than any other major historical power and discussing it no more makes others exempt from having done shite than discussing those powers would exempt the British Empire.

People tend to focus on what's relevant or interesting to them. I've written on the impacts of the Mongol, Islamic, and Russian Empires on modern Kazakhstan, but I doubt this would be a major conversation topic for most living in the UK or that most would want to dig into the writings and academic journals on the topic. With the Russian one in living memory, there is a lot more information and obvious ripple effect so people discuss it far more. People push away from it far more (their government is literally trying to push for changing their alphabet to get farther from Russia) than the other ones. It doesn't mean the others aren't very visible, but like with the UK and the Romans, it's just become part of the culture now as an academic talking point, nothing emotional. That's not true in Iran where it's Arabic words and writing that are getting pushed out of the Persian language to the point some who left Iran decade+ ago find it difficult to read writings from there anymore.

From a global perspective, there are a lot of impacts of past empires, but that doesn't mean everyone is going to talk about all of them nor would I think trying to dig into what good they did of much interest. It will fade with time and what hatred there is not isn't terrible effective in doing much anyways, but maybe it can be part of pushing for better trade and enforcement of tax evasion laws throughout the Commonwealth.

RustyBear · 18/09/2020 08:58

@CuriousAboutSamphire - but why is Islas Malvinas a more valid name than Falkland Islands?

Bubblesgun · 18/09/2020 08:59

@RustyBear

So for instance, starting using the real name Islas Malvinas instead of Falkland Islands

Except that the name Islas Malvinas is a name given to the islands by Spanish imperialists, based on the name given by French imperialists.

@ RustyBear

Except that historians believe that prior to the French arriving, there was no inhabitants.
The island was strategically located hence the interests.

They have now found some arrows, etc which makes historians assume that the island could have been visited by some indians from the Tierra Del Fuego ie. Patagonia prior to the French arriving in 1794
😉

TheSandman · 18/09/2020 09:01

I think it’s the superiority from the days of Empire that caused Brexit. People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc. This ‘we won the war’ bullshit.

What do you mean UK? That's a predominantly English attitude.

Mittens030869 · 18/09/2020 09:02

Stir up hate? So what is it about the empire that we should love? And who says we're not allowed to mention the Nazis any more? There are countless programmes all over my television about WW2.

^This exactly. You also don't hear German people trying to justify Hitler and the Nazis, apart from fringe groups. There were also no statues erected of the likes of Hitler, Himmler and Goebels etc.

MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously · 18/09/2020 09:02

Wrt the Falkland Islands, surely we should go by what the people who live be there want them to be called. As it stands those people do not view themselves as Argentinian and it's their opinion on the subject that matters.

TheEmpressOfUtterBastardry · 18/09/2020 09:06

@LemonTT

There isn’t an indigenous population of any colony that benefited from the British empire.

In America, Australia and NZ white British settlers committed genocide and to all extents and purposes still rule these territories. They just are ruled from London.

All the rest of the colonies suffered and continued to suffer from policies that deliberately created poverty and destitution for the majority of the population. In many cases this led to starvation. The benefits, wealth and improvements in standard of living, all accrued to the British and the favoured few elite.

The wealth and privilege of Britain today comes from suffering of others. As does the easy acceptance of inequity and unfairness that ruins our own society today.

Yep, I'd agree 100%.

Op your recommendation that we look at Empires "holistically and through the lens of time" suggests we accept and forget. I'm struggling to understand which 'positive acts' you are referring to which the British empire undertook, could you give some examples?

ANoTail · 18/09/2020 09:07

Thing is, I've yet to see anyone insist that individuals in modern Britain today should feel personally responsible for the empire. It's just that, whenever it's mentioned that we should recognise the empire for what it was, you always have people declaring that it had nothing to do with them so they're under no obligation to feel at all guilty about it.
Well no shit. If you were born in 1975, obviously the Bengal Famine had nothing to do with you.
Similarly, if you're a German born in 1975, you are in no way responsible for the Holocaust.
However if, in Germany, you attempted to portray the Third Reich as "the good old days", I think you'd be set straight pretty quickly.

TheSandman · 18/09/2020 09:08

Wrt the Falkland Islands, surely we should go by what the people who live be there want them to be called. As it stands those people do not view themselves as Argentinian and it's their opinion on the subject that matters.

Right of conquest? "It's mine now, fuck off, I'll call it what I want!"? Yep, that's the kind of thinking we need right now. So how long do you have to occupy someplace before you get squatters' rights?

Bubblesgun · 18/09/2020 09:10

@MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously

Wrt the Falkland Islands, surely we should go by what the people who live be there want them to be called. As it stands those people do not view themselves as Argentinian and it's their opinion on the subject that matters.
Totally agree with you. Lets ask the inhabitants what they think.

Also @MrsHuntGeneNotJeremyObviously, when you say ”No country in history cone out good” may i suggest that Ireland ROI would probably come
out pretty unstained?

KeepOnMovingForwards · 18/09/2020 09:10

I can't think of many positives, perhaps you think forcing a language onto people to make it easier for English people to travel around the world without learning a new language is a positive....

The Germans killed millions in the holocaust which was recent but somehow that isn't raised as much as it wasn't colonialism

You are joking? German schoolchildren are taught all about it and are taught a deep level of shame that the holocaust happened. Definitely children in the UK are taught about it, too. I don't remember ever being taught about colonialism. And, ongoing British colonialism is more recent than 1945-
Some countries didn't become fully independent until the 1980s:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_from_the_United_Kingdom

northstars · 18/09/2020 09:11

I’m Indian and would like to know what “positive acts” you think the Empire committed in South Asia? India was exploited and looted by the British, and events such as the Jallianwala Massacre and the Bengal famine were horrific. For Britain to face the reality of the Empire is long overdue and not a bad thing at all. Most people I speak to here seem to know very little about it (you seem much the same)

zoemum2006 · 18/09/2020 09:11

Too many years of glorifying empire. It’s time to change that mindset and be really frank and honest.

And those countries were often troubled later because that’s the impact of colonialism. There’s nothing inherently inferior with the ‘natives’ and the idea that we ‘sorted them out and they couldn’t cope without us’ is a bit dodgy tbh.

TheSandman · 18/09/2020 09:12

Some countries didn't become fully independent until the 1980s:

Some of us are still working on it.

Bubblesgun · 18/09/2020 09:13

[quote KeepOnMovingForwards]I can't think of many positives, perhaps you think forcing a language onto people to make it easier for English people to travel around the world without learning a new language is a positive....

The Germans killed millions in the holocaust which was recent but somehow that isn't raised as much as it wasn't colonialism

You are joking? German schoolchildren are taught all about it and are taught a deep level of shame that the holocaust happened. Definitely children in the UK are taught about it, too. I don't remember ever being taught about colonialism. And, ongoing British colonialism is more recent than 1945-
Some countries didn't become fully independent until the 1980s:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_that_have_gained_independence_from_the_United_Kingdom[/quote]
I disagree. Children at Kings College in Wimbledom are told the Blitz. They barely go into the rest of WWII. Shocking.

Yes German pupils and students are NOT taught history through dates learning, they are taught to DEBATE history. Huge difference and much more effective. They are very aware of the effect of brain washing.