To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@Straven123

There is a lot of colonialism or events similar to colonialism but Britain gets singled out because it had the biggest empire. It was French colonialism which lead to the Vietnam War, Namibia has just rejected offers of Eu 10 million in reparation for genocide in the early 1900s of indigenous people by the Germans colonists, the French were fighting in Algeria in 1950s, I think it was.

Doesn't make anything better but feeling got at for things that happened in the past won't build empathy, more annoyance imv.
The Germans killed millions in the holocaust which was recent but somehow that isn't raised as much as it wasn't colonialism.

The Nazis / Holocaust is a major focus for channels like History and Discovery. Much more so than the British Empire.

How have you missed this?

I wonder what Britain would be like today without the days of the Empire?

I think it would definitely not be the multicultural society we have today!

YABU to compare something that only ended in the 1960s with things that happened in the 13/14th century and 5th century, yes
The British Empire spans from the 1700s so isn't as modern as you imply. Obviously global thinking and ethics have changed since then. It's wrong to hold the Empire up to modern standards and suggests other Empires are exempt as they were a few hundred years earlier.

YANBU OP
I find that many British only know their own history. They’ve never heard of the Spanish Empire, Russian Empire, Chinese Empire or Islamic Empire (which became Ottoman Empire) both of which co-existed at the same time with the British Empire and both if which did more slave trading than the British did. We French also had a small Empire at the same time and also traded in slaves.

Not all empires were thousands of years ago then gone, and only British Empire. There were many co-existing with. The British Empire.

But I do agree that each country tends to teach its own history to school children. To add world history, it would have to be a very top level survey class as school age curriculum is already very full. Usually you have to self educate or study world history at university level to become aware of what else was going on on planet Earth apart from what the British were doing.

For me it's the context.

In Britain today there are a lot of people who want Britain to be a world power in its own right, "like we were" . Yet that world power was built on the slave trade and abuse of other countries and it's not something I want to try to go back to.

@FreekStar yep so racists should blame the British Empire for multiculturalism, which they hate so much.

*oops both should read all.

Is it being perhaps too nuanced to look at this outside some bizarre notion that we are ranking the Badness of Empires? Is it, let’s say, an option to consider that Empire in itself rarely proves to be a good outcome for the less powerful? Just the concept that one country has the right to rule another hints at disadvantages inherent for one party in the system.

I think it’s the superiority from the days of Empire that caused Brexit. People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc. This ‘we won the war’ bullshit.

The problem with threads like this is that many don't stop to separate the individual from the history.

Whilst hastily revising the past to suit modern mores, rather than doing it more slowly with actual evidence, passions are stoked, tempers flare and many new obfuscations and lies get added to the zetigeist, all of whoch prove difficult to counter (see the many claims of the numbers of trans people being killed each year for an example of total lies being wholly believed and quoted by many authoritarian organisations).

Taking the potato famine as an example. Look at how grossly the truth has been distorted at the time and again and again over the years. From "Oh, but they kept exporting food so it cannot have been that bad to It was genocide. The British government deliberately stopped any help being organised^. The truth is somewhere between, but the truth is extremely unpalateable, for any and every 'side' so the mythology and revisionism continues.

If we carry on as we are with Youtube/Twitter History we'll have faction set against faction for all sorts if spurious reasons.

Anyone else here a redhead bemused by another thread? Hate me because my hair colour, pale skin and freckles mean I must be of Gaelic extraction??? Oh that subconscious English bigotry... damn you, me, us, them, all!

@sst1234
This left wing self loathing based on historical events does nothing to change the real issues facing the oppressed today. And the fact that it’s done in the name of ethnic minorities by placard waving white people, just looking for a ‘cause’ is quite frankly more offensive than the cause itself. If you think people from ethnic minorities live their lives feeling resentful about the empire, then you are seriously deluded. Same with BLM, it has been hijacked by Marxists, and others feel compelled to join in. You can be anti racist and not get taken in by this nonsense to advance a different political agenda.

Thanks, SST, these are my feelings but I'm not articulate enough to explain them.
There is racism but let's deal with the present. More jobs, better education, more opportunities - giving the Daily Mail more anti-British stuff to rant about is not the way to go.

Like we can’t work collaboratively with EU countries because we think we are superior and ‘they need us more than we need them’

It’s utterly shameful and I am regularly ashamed to be British at the moment

@Leafyhouse

I'm with you on this OP. This current trend of 'revisionist history' is a new arena of ignorance. I think you can't judge historic events using modern values. I often wonder what we're doing right now that will be condemned by future generations.

Brexit

Whilst hastily revising the past to suit modern mores

Or fifty plus years of historical thinking that the British Empire was more complex and difficult than a triumphant sweep of pink across the world map.

I don’t imagine the 25,000 women and children who perished in the Boers war concentration camps or their sieving families thought the Empire was worth anything but hatred.

Surviving (nothing to do with baking)

@Bumpitybumper
You really do need to do some research as the British empire was around in the 1600s

Colonialism and Empires have been around at least as long as we have writing. I’m reading a book about 13-1100 BC regarding the various empires in Near East, Europe and Africa then (Egyptians, Hittites, Myceans, Nubians, etc) and their colonies.....and the rebellions they put down or toppled over from.

Britain and Spain and France were themselves colonised by waves of invaders and made parts of empires for thousands of years before they then did it to other countries. An empire wasn’t a new modern thing that the British thought of and then did to others. It, like slavery, is a legacy of the ancients that was passed down to all people.

I like to celebrate the progress we’ve made as a species to recognise that empires and slavery are bad and evil institutions. Over the past two hundred years, humanity has been working to break free from a cycle that has defined our societies since the earliest days- we’re talking at least 3800 BC.

@Dailyhandtowelwash

Whilst hastily revising the past to suit modern mores

Or fifty plus years of historical thinking that the British Empire was more complex and difficult than a triumphant sweep of pink across the world map.

You really think the Monster Shouters have done 50 years of thinking about this. Or would that be the doing it more slowly with actual evidence that I mentioned in the very same sentence you quoted?

That's an example of the hasty rush to judgement I was decrying. Pick a couple of words out of a sentence and lay claim to them being the whole meaning, intent of the writer!

Pshaw!

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/apr/12/britain-amritsar-massacre-centenary-1919-india

This was only a 100 years ago.

People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc

I read recently that most people think their family is 'special' - just a bit more sensible, intelligent etc than the average. I certainly did as a child. So carrying that into a view of your country would be quite possible imv. Don't the French believe many of their ways of life are superior to ours, in the past many Americans certainly thought everything was bigger and better over there.
I would imagine with our reasonably trustworty authorities, non corrupt institutions we can have some pride in our country. Compared to many countries our way of life is fairer, easier. We are entitled to be proud imv.

I think more light should be shined on the British Empire, when I was at school, GSCE history touched upon it but mainly in the light that Queen Victoria was the longest reigning monarch. I could tell you more about Henry 8th wives than the British Empire.

I have since tried to educate myself alot more on it since

It’s interesting that someone brought up Nazi Germany - I think we have a lot to learn from the Germans about dealing with their history. We cannot ignore it and sweep it under the carpet just because other empires were awful too. We need to acknowledge our role in the way the world has shaped today and realise how ingrained certain attitudes and assumptions are in our society that still come from Colonialism. We cannot change the past but we can change now to move forward in the future.

I think schools do teach a lot wider now. DD is Y7 and when in History they are doing Tudors or whatever they do some 'meanwhile elsewhere' lessons homework and look at the Tang dynasty or whatever that existed in same time period.

I think ideal is not to look at history as source of pride or shame but as ideas and lessons to critically examine.

I mentioned the holocaust because there are few threads about it on MN discussing the reparations Germany is making or the shame the Germans should feel about it.
It is well known about - movies, tv etc, but where is the complaints about them not showing enough regret, or whatever.
I read recently that apart from the leaders most Germans associated with running concentration camps etc were not convicted and returned to civilian life. Which is quite shocking imv.
I only raised it because all the criticism is about the UK and, not saying that shouldn't happen, but there needs to be some balance and this was an example to make my point.