To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

@IncludeWomenInTheSequel

You want, say, the Rwandan genocide of 1994, which had its roots in French colonialism, to be seen in the same way as the Roman Empire?

Try telling that to people whose babies were thrown into wells just a couple of decades ago.

Colonialism echoes across many nations today; we can't get away from that and nor should we try. Civil wars still run in countries ravaged by colonial rule; if we had never been there much of the world would be extremely different, and we'll never know in which ways it might have been better for the citizens of those nations.

You cant read the world today with Ifs.

The Empires explored, colonised, endoctrinated, committed atrocities in the name of kings and god, etc. That IS a fact.

So no ifs. BUT we left without the transferring the technologies to the PEOPLE so they could be independant.

@Leafyhouse

I'm with you on this OP. This current trend of 'revisionist history' is a new arena of ignorance. I think you can't judge historic events using modern values. I often wonder what we're doing right now that will be condemned by future generations.

Agreed here.

I've studied Irish history at school so know about the effects of the potato famine etc and how awful that was. I've not studied Indian colonial history etc very well as that wasn't on offer to me when I was at school and I didn't take History for a further education qualification.

I do think that other empires committed equally appalling acts too.

It's either a question of do we recompense them now but if we do this then the other empires should do this too? In essence it's like a time bomb has been waiting to go off and it seems, to me, that since BLM really kicked off with George Floyd sadly being killed that his death has been the main catalyst. This is obviously a good thing but you can't help wondering why people didn't do anything about this before now, like looking to get rid of statues of slave owners.

Also - e.g. Sir Henry Tate owned vast swathes of land in SW London where I live, if you look at things that way, do you want to get rid of e.g. Streatham Common, the buildings on it, just because his trade was built on slavery or would a nice little plaque saying what he did be acceptable? Because, really, then, you can't have it both ways, pick the nice parts of what to keep and make the bad parts obvious.

What makes slavery "wrong"?
Is this a joke?!

@CherryPavlova

Is it not about understanding the horrors of empire not so much to apologise for the actions of our predecessors, but to learn, to rebalance the injustice and to make all people of equal value going forwards?

The consequences of empire is a sense of white supremacy amongst many who fear making other people equal will make them less equal. They are too corrupt or too stupid to understand equality improves the lives of everyone. Empire was about white supremacy and imposing a culture of ‘our way or no way’ through violence and asset stripping. It cannot ever be celebrated but can be understood.

I struggle feeling St George’s cross wearing, LoHG singers who don’t know the words and Farage are of equal value but I know that’s something I must work on to ensure all people are of equal value- even if their horrendously racist views are not.

I couldn't agree more, apart from to say that Empire outside the British consequence is about supremacy but not necessarily white. That is however an element of the way it is used in the UK right now.

Just to add, going back to a post upthread, is that I don't think it's meaningless to object to the singing of certain songs without thinking about their meaning.

@TheSandman

Some countries didn't become fully independent until the 1980s:

Some of us are still working on it.

Are you aware that Scotland joined the United Kingdom on the promise of the riches of the spoil in India. Have a look at the Scottish and Indian historical relations, have look at Glasgow Jamaican relations. This was not an English disease Scotland were completely complicit in ‘Empire’ building.

I too am Scottish and I have researched this.

British context not consequence. And obviously many other white nations also ran empires.

Berlin Wall not war!

I agree with you entirely OP and don't accept any guilt or shame for the behaviour of my ancestors. I certainly won't be joining in with agreeing how dreadful a nation we are on the back of it. For such a supposedly shit country it's surprising how many people want to come here isn't it?

@Dailyhandtowelwash

British context not consequence. And obviously many other white nations also ran empires.

Agreed. That is why I use the term “EmpireS”.

I’m proud of the Empire - a small country built one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, operated to or better than the moral standards of the time, spread technological, medical knowledge throughout the world - used the Empire to fight and win against numerous opponents (Hitler, Napoleon, tin pot dictators) who would have killed many millions and taken history on an even darker path. Plus when the time came, we gave it up without too much angst and our common law, language, sports and culture act as a bedrock for those societies today. Bad things happen but so do good things and the Empire was (overall) a force for global good in its day

The feeling I get is we should be full of shame at our empire even now. I don’t think we should feel proud. But I don’t feel Germany has the same amount out self flagellation over something that happened much more recently. They are always held up as this model country. But maybe I am wrong.

Well OP, our contemporary attitude to history is very postmodern. We don't try to figure out what really were the facts, we aren't even sure there are immutable facts, just points of view. That said, history is contested ground where we need it to fit our sensibilities now. It needs to be viewed in a way that supports our social aims now.

I recently watched a youtube video which looked at the devastating impact that partition had on India and Pakistan - it actually caused me to cry -I've never felt so ashamed to be British.

If anyone is interested, should be part of the curriculum imo

So, most people disagree with the British Empire but want to remain in the EU? So it was wrong of Britain to want to control other countries but totally acceptable to be controlled by the EU?

@contrmary

People then knew colonisation was wrong. They knew slavery was wrong. The people in power largely ignored it and ploughed on.

That's nonsense. What makes slavery "wrong"? It's been an intrinsic part of human history, from prehistoric times until the modern day. The USA, the Aztecs, the Irish, the Picts, the Romans, the Greeks, the Egyptians, the Africans - all civilisations have had slaves. It's only in the past couple of hundred years that we've decided to start banning them. Even today, 1 in 200 people is a slave. Slavery is only "wrong" because the current fashion is to decide it is wrong. In a few hundred or thousand years it will almost certainly become common again, because it is a natural instinct. It's not just humans either, in the animal kingdom various species (eg ants) enslave others of their species.

Clearly a troll post

As someone not born or raised in the UK, but now settled here...
I can perhaps offer a different (less brain-washed?) perspective.

I believe one of the reasons it is still a bit taboo to talk about the full scale of the harm of the British Empire, is because it would lift the veil on another unpleasant truth: the scale of the harm that the British establishment has caused to its own native people over time, and still today.

The UK is a deeply unequal country where the old feudal status-quo has barely been reformed.
The way the Empire treated its colonies is just an extension of how the monied and/or titled upper class treated (and still treats, when they can get away with it) lower classes (and guess what: if you have to work for a leaving, whether white collar or blue collar, you are working class, i.e. cattle)

There's lots of remarkable good-will and decency in this country, but it typically doesn't come from the ruling establishment.
And flag worship is often used as a deflection technique, exploiting a healthy sense of self-worth and community to avoid tackling real problems, and preserve an unfair status quo (clap for the NHS, anyone?)

In other words, the cult of the Empire was (is?) a tool to subjugate both the colonised, and the locals.

@user1471500037

I’m proud of the Empire - a small country built one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, operated to or better than the moral standards of the time, spread technological, medical knowledge throughout the world - used the Empire to fight and win against numerous opponents (Hitler, Napoleon, tin pot dictators) who would have killed many millions and taken history on an even darker path. Plus when the time came, we gave it up without too much angst and our common law, language, sports and culture act as a bedrock for those societies today. Bad things happen but so do good things and the Empire was (overall) a force for global good in its day

😂😂😂 I love that. You ask the French and they ll tell you exactly the same in the opposite way. How great it was when Lafayette came to help the americans to get rid of your kind, how fantastic the feeling when Napoleon’s army killed Nelson, how your “small country that build a powerful empire” to quote you created more wars than amy other countries in France because you wanted money and wine 😂

See. Because every side has a story to tell and every side is feeling righteous, it is IMPOSSIBLE to teach or understand history this way.

People have got to understand the international relationships of the time, the powers in place ans the suffering of some.

Except that Ireland for instance gained nothing From the british occupation and they built everything themselves.

@TheSandman

I think it’s the superiority from the days of Empire that caused Brexit. People have some warped idea that the UK is special and shouldn’t be ‘controlled’ by the EU etc etc. This ‘we won the war’ bullshit.

What do you mean UK? That's a predominantly English attitude.

Precisely

@user1471500037

I’m proud of the Empire - a small country built one of the largest empires the world has ever seen, operated to or better than the moral standards of the time, spread technological, medical knowledge throughout the world - used the Empire to fight and win against numerous opponents (Hitler, Napoleon, tin pot dictators) who would have killed many millions and taken history on an even darker path. Plus when the time came, we gave it up without too much angst and our common law, language, sports and culture act as a bedrock for those societies today. Bad things happen but so do good things and the Empire was (overall) a force for global good in its day

WTAF really, REALLY!

It’s this sort of romanticism that causes the problem. British Colonialism of India set the country back 100 years! The British government killed industry and independence and stole riches. They made Indians use inferior ‘British’ technology’s and caused famine and disease to spread. They insisted that only British made textiles could be sold in India fgs!

Britain was so blinkered that everything British was better.

As I said I don’t believe in cancel culture and we are also the society we are because of our colonialism. But you have proved @user1471500037 why we need better education on the growth of Empires.

A major concern I have is that in this current "cancel culture" it feels as though things have to be categorised as "good" or "bad" and there is absolutely no room for nuance or context.

Did the British Empire do horrific things and create hardship and inequality for some countries that persists today? Yes. Did the empire support the introduction of infrastructure (railways, irrigation) and medicines that saved lives? Yes. Is the British Empire one of a long line of powers that has abused their position and unfairly gained from others? Yes.

I also don't support this arbitrary chronological cut-off where historical acts performed before a certain time don't count and thus the relics of that empire or era can remain intact whereas those performed after a certain time must be destroyed immediately. This is especially true if the acts were not performed by anyone who is alive today and are in many cases centuries old. Nobody wants the pyramids dismantled or the Roman amphitheatres destroyed even though both of these empires have dodgy pasts. Why the rush to erase British colonial history? Is the only difference something so impermeable as time?

I don’t think anyone is asking people to feel guilty for the atrocities of the past, but to acknowledge both its positive and negative impacts (then and today) on others, learn from it and do better.

This isn’t a ‘new’ hatred of the empire, we’re just beginning to be heard rather than silenced constantly

@Bumpitybumper

A major concern I have is that in this current "cancel culture" it feels as though things have to be categorised as "good" or "bad" and there is absolutely no room for nuance or context.

Did the British Empire do horrific things and create hardship and inequality for some countries that persists today? Yes. Did the empire support the introduction of infrastructure (railways, irrigation) and medicines that saved lives? Yes. Is the British Empire one of a long line of powers that has abused their position and unfairly gained from others? Yes.

I also don't support this arbitrary chronological cut-off where historical acts performed before a certain time don't count and thus the relics of that empire or era can remain intact whereas those performed after a certain time must be destroyed immediately. This is especially true if the acts were not performed by anyone who is alive today and are in many cases centuries old. Nobody wants the pyramids dismantled or the Roman amphitheatres destroyed even though both of these empires have dodgy pasts. Why the rush to erase British colonial history? Is the only difference something so impermeable as time?

Nobody wants to “erase” British colonial history. Quite the opposite, when so many British people have no idea about the brutality of the Empire and seem to think it was a great thing for the world. More education and more honesty is clearly needed.

I've never felt so ashamed to be British.

See this, I don't get. Are you ashamed of every questionable deed committed by a British person? Where does it end. I'm not ashamed to be British, just I am not proud to be British. It's just who I am. It's a random occurrence. I happened to be born on this stretch of land and not another. Other people's shit behaviour is not mine to carry or make amends for.