To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

I’ve come back to this with a less defensive head on today, I’m hoping we can have a discussion rather than just defensive nitpicking at others have said (I’m guilty of that as well!)

I’ve been wondering what life would be like today if there hadn’t been Empires, for example would we have the same advancements in science and technology?

Would communication and travel be as easy?

Would we all still be living in small tribes rather than larger communities.

Are those trade offs worth it ? Would you swap your comfortable life here in the West for a different one ? I have a roof over my head and food in my belly, my children never go bed hungry, they always have access to clean clothes, they are both in school, my special needs child gets extra support. I can afford presents and feasts for celebrations. All for the quirk of fate that I was born in Britain. Is it fair that some people don’t have those things ? No it isn’t.

Would I trade those things in order for someone else to have them? No I wouldn’t.

The Mighty Icelandic Empire features in many a history book. and let's not forget how Lichtenstein once ruled half the globe.

@CatsFantastic - I’ve been wondering what life would be like today if there hadn’t been Empires, for example would we have the same advancements in science and technology?

Ireland was known as the land of saints and scholars pre-colonisation. However, Ireland was also advanced technologically during that period - Irish Times article

So we may not have had the exact same advancements but we would had had many advancements, some presumably better, some worse. These advancements were curtailed by colonisation.

I know your post is not meant to be arrogant or goody but can you really not see how unbelievably arrogant and insulting it is to suggest that the only people capable of advancements in science and technology are those from the empire?

I'm half Czech, and that country has never been involved in empire building, but for a lot of their history they were occupied by other nations. Same with other countries in that region. So it definitely isn't the case that all countries have been guilty of it.

*goady not goody

OchonAgusOchonO

I was talking about Empires in general. Without the Roman Empire there’s lots of science and technological advancements we might not have. It might be the same for the British Empire. It might not. Without Empires we might all have developed a tribal existence, and science and tech might have developed exactly the same anyway.

Isn’t it interesting to think about these things?

CatsFantastic

“ I have a roof over my head and food in my belly, my children never go bed hungry, they always have access to clean clothes, they are both in school, my special needs child gets extra support. I can afford presents and feasts for celebrations. All for the quirk of fate that I was born in Britain.”

All for the quirk you were not born into poverty. There are plenty of British born families who do not have the privileges listed above. The Empire did nothing for them.

Actually I was born into poverty. Raised on benefits by disabled parents in a working class town.

I had a better childhood than anyone born in many other countries in the same circumstances.

Much of this discussion presupposes that colonisation, by any country in any shape or form, belongs to the past and that it will stay in the past.

Why should we assume that this worldwide dynamic, which has prevailed for so many centuries, has stopped now? Just because we, in the west, through our assumed cultural superiority, are the architects of this cessation?

I'd be wary of this assumption.

@CatsFantastic

OchonAgusOchonO

I was talking about Empires in general. Without the Roman Empire there’s lots of science and technological advancements we might not have. It might be the same for the British Empire. It might not. Without Empires we might all have developed a tribal existence, and science and tech might have developed exactly the same anyway.

Isn’t it interesting to think about these things?

The issue I have with your post is the suggestion (i.e. Are those trade offs worth it ?) that without empire (and yes, I know you were referring to empire in general) life would be worse, rather than simply different, in terms of scientific and technological advancements. The link I posted shows how the development of science and technology in Ireland was curtailed due to colonisation.

Advancements would have happened, albeit in a different way and at a different pace.

@tormentil

Much of this discussion presupposes that colonisation, by any country in any shape or form, belongs to the past and that it will stay in the past.

Why should we assume that this worldwide dynamic, which has prevailed for so many centuries, has stopped now? Just because we, in the west, through our assumed cultural superiority, are the architects of this cessation?

I'd be wary of this assumption.

Good point, and no it hasn’t stopped at all. Look at the USA and it’s acquisition and dare I say occupation of various territories- Puerto Rico, Guam, Marshall Islands, etc.

Look also at ISIS which definitely had Empire aspirations and still does. It frequently says it wants to re-establish the “Islamic caliphate” which was another name for the Islamic empire that lasted from the 700sAD through several dynasties until the the early 1900s when the Ottoman dynasty fell.

Some Brexiteers say that the EU is a proto-Empire as the relations grew closer between members from a mere economic alliance and became more federalistic with combined politics (EU Parliament), combined law (EU courts), combined defence programs/acquisitions. An argument can be made for this in all seriousness. Except it would not be an empire built on military conquest but through economic advantage and duress.

@TheSandman

The Mighty Icelandic Empire features in many a history book. and let's not forget how Lichtenstein once ruled half the globe.

I said every country has at one time invaded and colonised another. And that most have attempted to build an empire.

Iceland- Danish colony that then invaded and colonised in turn Greenland and Newfoundland.

Lichtenstein- Monarchy that invaded and colonised Moravia, Lower Austria, Silesia, and Styria.

Much of this discussion presupposes that colonisation, by any country in any shape or form, belongs to the past and that it will stay in the past.

I don't think anyone is saying that. People are, however, objecting to the glorification of empire built on the backs of the colonised.

Please stop digging.
Empires are terrible. We were terrible for having one. We should be ashamed. No ifs. No buts.

I don't think that one should be proud, nor should one feel shame. It just was.

After all, if the atrocities perpetuated in the name of the Empire should not induce guilt in those that benefit from it today, because after all, it wasn't them, then surely one should not take pride in the achievements of the Empire, because after all, those achievements were not committed by them?

The Mali Empire is fascinating. The Mansa Musa was the wealthiest person in Medieval times, having conquered West Africa. The golden artefacts from his Palace are extraordinary.

It's not a case of feeling blameworthy or being blamed for "Empire".

As others have said, it's about accepting an element of responsibility as the privilege that the society we live in (whether or not we personally are privileged) is built on the wealth and resources that were acquired via the power of the Empire.

It's also worth mentioning that the UK got more Marshall Aid than Germany or France - but chose to spaff it up the wall spend it on trying to hold on to the Empire rather than as France and Germany did spend it on what it was supposed to do infrastructure and rebuilding productive industries.

@ANoTail

The fact is, we still benefit in this country from the effects of the British Empire, while other countries still suffer from the effect the empire had on them. YOU don't need to feel personally guilty for it but you can at least recognise what this country has done in fairly recent history.

Nailed it

@prettybird - to be fair, GB had their zone in Germany to support and administer, and prevented a famine in the immediate post war years.

Nowt to do with the Marshall Plan

...and the UK's misspending of its share

Good article explaining what happened

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/modern/marshall_01.shtml

PlanDeRaccordement - you missed out China. They are well and truly Empire building! Buying strategic businesses across Europe & UK, installation of their technology, flooding our markets with cheaper goods. It's a slow progress but that is intentional, we are not meant to notice to much of Chinese influence. But there will be a point in the distant future where China will have a say in what we do!
And if you look at past ventures, like the easy India company, it all started with lucrative trade...

@prettybird, yes but my point stands... The British certainly supported their zone, which cost money. It wasn't all wasted.

Ylvamoon
Yes, I did not list China as it has been an empire for millennium- it’s not aspirational. What you describe is the power that comes with being one. :)