To be wary of hatred directed towards the British Empire

[Bumpitybumper]

With the rise of movements such as BLM, there seems to be a growing hatred towards the British Empire and a keenness to point out all of the flaws and terrible things the empire and key individuals within it did. I too am horrified when I think about the role that the empire played in slavery and events such as the Irish Potato Famine. As these things become better publicised then there seems to be a growing school of thought that this is a white or at least British people problem that we must somehow atone for and feel guilty about. The British Empire has been cast as the ultimate villain and something we must be ashamed about.

My concern though is that lots of countries around the world have had empires and inevitably when these countries held lots of power, they acted in ways that we would now regard as morally reprehensible. The Mongol and Roman empires for example, were extremely cruel and many empires sort to brutally stamp out religious or cultural differences and gain control. Equally empires have brought about advancements in technology and improved the living standards of millions of people around the world.

Am I therefore being unreasonable to suggest that it is only fair to look at empires holistically and through the lens of the time they operated in? Of course the wrongdoings and horrendous acts mustn't be hidden, but equally they should be given context and positive acts shouldn't be erased either.

Most of the pharmaceuticals used in the UK are from the Netherlands, followed by Germany then Switzerland (House of Commons).

Yep my Creon (enzymes) is unobtainable in 40,000 dose ( comes from Germany) which means I now have to take 12 10,000 a day instead of 3 40,000. I've now been informed this may be a permanent thing. It takes my count of pills to take a day to 36.

It’s the same thing again and again on here- lots of posts about how “we should all listen to BAME people, we should raise their voices up” .... but only if those BAME people think exactly the same as i do it course.

I’ve said it on other threads. Too many posters are far more interested in making sure that everyone knows how not racist they are than actually listening to BAME people.

we should all listen to BAME people, we should raise their voices up

I think you may have misunderstood. Paying equal heed to BAME voices does not mean that when a BAME woman speaks on any subject, all anti racists must uncritically agree and refuse to argue with her .

@CatsFantastic - I’ve said it on other threads. Too many posters are far more interested in making sure that everyone knows how not racist they are than actually listening to BAME people.

Main difference here is that many posters see nothing wrong with expressing xenophobic posts regarding Ireland/Irish whereas they would never express the same opinion regarding BAME countries/people for fear of being labelled racist.

Having picked up a book & read about the British empire & colonialism for at least 15 minutes now, I feel qualified to say that the Emprire was, on balance, a force for good & the world is now a better place for more people because of its legacy.

I'm not Mary Beard, but the o.p. has a point. By chance, I know a little about the fact countries would send delegates to petition Queen Victoria's protection. They might be invaded by Portugal, fought over, become Belgian ruled, but if they begged for British protection, and were lucky enough to get it, they would be safe. I don't have details, but Mauritius was one such case. Britain couldn't keep up protecting half the world, but if they withdrew, another European country with a navy might move in. (For Mauritius, the last one was France.) There isn't a sensible way to evaluate variables. Being entirely left alone wasn't a paradise. Being taken over by one particular country could be greatly feared. Britain gained hugely from Roman rule. Later, an even bigger empire gained greatly in highly similar ways from British rule. All power, though, tends to attract power abusers. No doubt Prof Beard could give examples of good and bad Roman rulers, or, more often, foolish, corrupt or nasty behaviour by individual soldiers or groups of soldiers.

@FurierTransform

Having picked up a book & read about the British empire & colonialism for at least 15 minutes now, I feel qualified to say that the Emprire was, on balance, a force for good & the world is now a better place for more people because of its legacy.

Who were you reading? Niall 'It was worth all the thieving, murder and slavery' Ferguson?

@20mum - Later, an even bigger empire gained greatly in highly similar ways from British rule.

I'm still waiting for someone to articulate the many ways Ireland gained greatly from british rule. Perhaps you could articulate some of these as nobody else appears to be willing to?

Hitler brought in effective anti-smoking policies and the Nazi's increased global knowledge of the management of hypothermia. That certainly doesn't outweigh a genocide.

The Empire outlawed Suttee (widow burning on funeral pyres); nobody would suggest that was a bad thing but it really isn't enough to outweigh the crimes of Empire.

The UK should be a meritocracy and have less polarized wealth, but we've a long way to go. Nobody is saying anything more outrageous (or 'woke') than that people should not be disadvantaged because of the colour of their skin, their religious persuasion or their heritage. Sometimes we need to take measures to level off the playing fields.

I can't begin to imagine how anyone would think statues celebrating slavers, or singing Land of Hope and Glory would be a good thing for our country. Why would anyone want to celebrate the crimes of a bygone age.

Hitler brought in effective anti-smoking policies and the Nazi's increased global knowledge of the management of hypothermia. That certainly doesn't outweigh a genocide

You do know how they studied the effects of hypothermia and the humans they used to get these “advances”

Most of my family having made their way through Europe managed to escape the Nazis by coming to Britain. My Gf though was caught and sent to a concentration camp where he too was experimented on which caused a life altering disability.

The experiments on hypothermia were part of the genicide

OchonAgusOchonO Someone suggested last night that we received English as our mother tongue as a result of colonialism and that benefited us today.

You know, because they couldn't learn Irish so they educated us by shooting the knowledge into our brains.

Oliversmumsarmy With respect, I think that was the point of the post. No matter what 'good' came out years later there's no excuse for genocide.

@RuggerHug

OchonAgusOchonO Someone suggested last night that we received English as our mother tongue as a result of colonialism and that benefited us today.

You know, because they couldn't learn Irish so they educated us by shooting the knowledge into our brains.

Yes, I saw that. Except the only reason english is widely used today is because of british colonialism. If they hadn't colonised half the world, english would be as much use internationally as a chocolate teapot.

Agreed.

@Maireas

Priti Patel was bought up with the same caste/class privilege as Johnson and Cameron? A woman of colour who went to a comprehensive school in Watford, then Keele University?? Not the same level of privilege as a white man who went to Eton and Oxbridge, I would suggest.....

You need to find out what 'caste' means in the indian context it will clarify why she, being clearly talentless, is so arrogant.

I know what caste means. I also think that to label any Hindu arrogant because of that is stereotyping. Hindus don't automatically get access to the top jobs in the UK by virtue of their caste. Ms Patel (whatever you think of her) has not had the same level of privilege as Johnson and Cameron.

@Oliversmumsarmy

Hitler brought in effective anti-smoking policies and the Nazi's increased global knowledge of the management of hypothermia. That certainly doesn't outweigh a genocide

You do know how they studied the effects of hypothermia and the humans they used to get these “advances”

Most of my family having made their way through Europe managed to escape the Nazis by coming to Britain. My Gf though was caught and sent to a concentration camp where he too was experimented on which caused a life altering disability.

The experiments on hypothermia were part of the genicide

Indeed that is my point. The benefits/good that may have come out of such regimes cannot be taken as a sign that they are a force for good. The medical advances offered by the Nazi regime were far too high to pay for any perceived benefits. Similarly, the Irish famine and the Boer war were far too high a price to pay for other nations to learn English.

The medical advances offered by the Nazi regime were far too high to pay for any perceived benefits

The Japanese run similar horror shows... Like how long does it take for a man to freeze to death?

I think you may have misunderstood. Paying equal heed to BAME voices does not mean that when a BAME woman speaks on any subject, all anti racists must uncritically agree and refuse to argue with her confused.

True. Just look how many Black and Hispanic American voted for Trump.

Paying equal heed to BAME voices does not mean that when a BAME woman speaks on any subject, all anti racists must uncritically agree and refuse to argue with her

I would argue that doing so would in fact be racist.

Is this shitty justification and deflection still going on?

We should never be proud of the Empire. Ever. It is an embarrassing stain on our history.

True, but no need for the embarrassment as it is a stain shared by every other county on the planet if you look at all of history. Every country at one time has invaded/colonised another country and most have also set up empires of their own that while not as big as British empire in “claimed” land dimensions, were larger in % world population ruled or wealth.

True, but no need for the embarrassment as it is a stain shared by every other county on the planet if you look at all of history.

I can only assume you are going back to pre-historic migration if you're claiming every country invaded/colonised? There's a massive difference between pre-historic people migrating and taking over land areas, presumably very violently, and the European empires that went on until very recent times.

"Every country at one time has invaded/colonised another country and most have also set up empires of their own "

Utter nonsense. Utter ridiculous nonsense.

It's not even true of all White European countries. So that's a big "get fucking educated" from me.