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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Questions for white people

730 replies

Questionspandemic · 15/09/2020 12:54

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

OP posts:
Gorganzolabrie · 15/09/2020 15:27

"I think at the root is the fact that people generally don’t like to question their own behaviour and values. It’s uncomfortable and confronting and people try to avoid that by burying their head in the sand. Plus, lots of people don’t see themselves as privileged so struggle to acknowledge that they benefit from racism/white privilege. There’s a knee-jerk “but my life is hard!” reaction."

This.

OneForMeToo · 15/09/2020 15:27

Well I’m pretty sure there are a few black people who want to be “worth” more than white people rather than equal just like there are white people who want to make sure they are “worth” more than black people you cannot deny that.

Same as some white family getting mad about their child marrying black people. Some black families again get mad about their child marrying white. Or what about white girls are ok for sex but nothing more and you must marry a black girl. White girls have a reputation between certain groups as being easy and fair game for their sexual needs but worthless for a relationship.

Both sides of the coin can be as bad as each other.

Equality won’t fix those people because they believe their heritage is the superior.

Ditheringdooley · 15/09/2020 15:31

Because racism is commonly understood as a personal failing- that person is racist, racism is bad, that person is bad, rather than a structural system or societal sea that we all swim in.

Therefore it is hard for people to engage which something which risks making them feel or look bad.

Clamming up and not discussing things (incl by telling ourselves that some people are racist and others aren’t) means the structure/ sea of racism we are swimming in doesn’t get noticed or challenged.

White privilege (and fragility) means not asking/ thinking/ engaging with it unless forced and then lots of defensiveness as a coping strategy.

Anordinarymum · 15/09/2020 15:32

[quote unmarkedbythat]@Anordinarymum find me a white person who is 100% not racist in any way at all. Find me a man who is 100% not sexist in any way at all. The whole point is that a lot of racism is unconscious. When you are part of the privileged group, you don't see it. That's one of the privileges. Like men who claim that we don't need feminism any more, that women are equal if not privileged, that because there are now laws guaranteeing women's rights to vote, work, own property, divorce, withhold consent to marital sex, etc, the job is done. I know many men who would be wounded to be told they are in some ways sexist and that they benefit every day from sexism, but it would still be true to say it.

Too many white people think that racism is the overt stuff, the BNP and EDL and KKK, racist graffiti and violence and calls for forced repatriation. Too few white people recognise that racism is far more than that. Years ago I was talking to my DH about getting the night bus home it became clear to me that he had no idea about the mental checklist of 'the safest way to do this as a woman'. My DH is not an overtly sexist man, but he is a man in a sexist society, he benefits from sexism, he does not recognise certain issues because he has never had to confront them because as a man that is his privilege. It works for racism too.[/quote]
I'm a mum of mixed race children. I have seen racism first hand by white people directly at my ex husband and then at school by white children and white teachers alike directed at my kids. I've seen it when they joined out of school activities, and also in shops where we would buy Indian spices etc by other people from other races/cultures directed straight at me, so I know how it feels to be looked at like you are shite.

I don't need a lecture on this subject. I have lived alongside it. You can either give in to it or rise above it. Most of my black friends do not bitch about it or get on soap boxes and shout about injustice. Sure they will give you their experience if you ask them but whining got nobody anywhere did it

Wherehavetheteletubbiesgone · 15/09/2020 15:33

@WaxOnFeckOff

i have no issue with people of any colour talking about racism. However that's not really what BLM is about though is it? It's what people think it's about and why so many people support it. I am happy to support an end to racism but not BLM as such.
This BLM want to defund the police. They wanted to witch hunt against an innocent person where no crime had been committed. www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8734109/Victoria-Station-CCTV-reveals-platform-worker-Belly-Mujinga-NOT-spat-on.html They objected to tearing down statues and graffiti on the cenotaph. Not the anti racism part protest socially distanced is fine i support anti Racism like i can support anti gingerism and Trans rights (hides from the mumsnet feminist mafia) and female refuge. Does that also mean i can support mens rights groups, white advocacy groups and other working class groups then i would suggest absolutely yes.

Remember that on average an African black person will get a higher mark than a white British person at school and both will be outperformed by their asian counterparts. And statistically two men entering police custody today one black one white the white man is much more likely to die before he leaves custody.

stayathomer · 15/09/2020 15:34

I honestly think most people dont know the right thing to say and dont want to hurt people's feelings or feel awkward. For example when Benedict Cumberbatch talked about coloured people at an awards ceremony everyone went mad, but I hadn't known that what he was saying was wrong. My son told me they were asking the kids to draw their family and friends and he pulled out his brown pencil and then paused and his best friend said 'are you worried about how to colour me in? I'm brown and I'm colouring you red' (and they laughed about it as ds was burnt on that particular day), but ds said he felt bad cos he'd made his friend feel different

yetanothernamitynamechange · 15/09/2020 15:35

I can remember when me too was all over the place a male friend being incredulous that all of the stories coming out good be true. He was a good person, he just genuinely couldnt believe that it was as "bad as that". I said that ummm actually it was worse and to be fair he did listen but I still don't think he 100% believed it. I found it really hard to understand how he could be so blind to something that had played such a big part of my life and how I behave.
Then, along with BLM in 2020 when a lot of black people were talking about racism I have to admit there was a tiny part of me that thought "surely it cant be as bad as that." Fortunately I remembered the previous conversation I had and Had A Word with myself and didnt vocalise that thought.
It is just that although I was aware (obviously) that racism was a problem, I wasn't fully aware of all its forms/nuances since it wasnt targetted at me. Also it wasn't a nice thought that people I cared about would have suffered. It is an even less nice thought that people like me were the reason.
Finally I think everyone wants to be the hero in their own story. I think discussion around the Black Lives Matter movement (rightly) puts black people at the centre and casts white people as either the villains (for want of a better word) or in a supporting role as allies. That is as it should be, but it is hard to accept especially since it isn't something most white people are used to (in films etc it is rarely white people that get to be the wise-cracking sidekick to black people)

mumsthewurd · 15/09/2020 15:35

Middle/upper class white people control the agenda. When all of a sudden there’s a “moment” where the agenda is not in their control it’s scary. It’s easier to be offended than to change your mindset and behaviour. It’s a primitive defence mechanism.

LovelyLovelyMe · 15/09/2020 15:35

I'm white. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm no better than any other race and I'm no worse either.

I've no problem with black people talking about racism that they have experienced.

I have a problem with the hagiography that seems to be surrounding the entire black race at the moment.

Twinkled · 15/09/2020 15:36

@GoatWardrobe

Some people find it deeply problematic to experience themselves as perpetrators of inequality. Some people misunderstand the term 'white privilege' and scream about their poverty/poor education/lack of opportunity/disability. Some people have deeply ingrained views about the 'right type' of non-white person ideally grateful for being allowed in the gates, unchallenging of the status quo, reluctant to protest or do anything that might associate them with the Angry Black Person stereotype, downplaying their own race. (This type of person overlaps strongly with the imaginary-- BAME colleague who thinks that being called a racial epithet in the office is just jolly bantz and never PLays the Race Card.) Some people simply don't like a conversation in which they are called upon to play only a listening/learning role.

Some people are as thick as a pig's ear, and have no understanding of structural or institutional racism, and think it's not racism unless it's someone actually hurling racialised abuse at someone on the street, and even then they think that there can be anti-white racism, because they don't grasp the difference between racism and ethnic prejudice minus the power.

I mean, I could go on.

This. I agree.
turnitonagain · 15/09/2020 15:37

@LovelyLovelyMe

I'm white. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm no better than any other race and I'm no worse either.

I've no problem with black people talking about racism that they have experienced.

I have a problem with the hagiography that seems to be surrounding the entire black race at the moment.

Oh do tell. What’s the problem with what you perceive as black people getting the limelight for, what, 2-3 months so far? Being viewed as saints, is that what’s happening?
QueenofAsgard · 15/09/2020 15:38

@LovelyLovelyMe

I'm white. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm no better than any other race and I'm no worse either.

I've no problem with black people talking about racism that they have experienced.

I have a problem with the hagiography that seems to be surrounding the entire black race at the moment.

This.
Russellbrandshair · 15/09/2020 15:39

Too many white people think that racism is the overt stuff, the BNP and EDL and KKK, racist graffiti and violence and calls for forced repatriation. Too few white people recognise that racism is far more than that. Years ago I was talking to my DH about getting the night bus home it became clear to me that he had no idea about the mental checklist of 'the safest way to do this as a woman'. My DH is not an overtly sexist man, but he is a man in a sexist society, he benefits from sexism, he does not recognise certain issues because he has never had to confront them because as a man that is his privilege. It works for racism too

So well said (and my kids are mixed race too).
It’s like, my husband doesn’t actively discriminate against women, nor rapes them, nor do anything he would regard as misogynistic. HOWEVER, he’s a big muscular dude and wouldn’t think twice about walking alone through a deserted parking lot at night. I, on the other hand, would have to think very carefully before doing so because the risks of it is constantly at the back of my mind, like they are for many women. My h cannot “get it” because he doesn’t live with this concern at the back of his mind in his daily life. It’s simply not on his radar.
On the other hand, since he’s not white, there are situations where he would need to worry about things that wouldn’t cross my mind as a white person. That’s why people don’t get it- they’ve never had to consider issues in their daily life that affect others.

stayathomer · 15/09/2020 15:42

Ps it's mad hearing any of this because in Ireland we always look on Britain as being such a diverse welcoming country whereas Ireland is only starting to move out of being very white. Also Irish people, although friendly and welcoming are known to have a bit of a 'them' and 'us', not even always to do with colour but in general eg I moved to the country from the city and was told I was lucky I had in laws down here as it would take people longer to accept me not being from the area.

Stripesgalore · 15/09/2020 15:48

It is really a combination of factors:

  1. People already have so much stress they don’t want to deal with anymore or think they can’t handle anymore.
  2. They don’t know what they can do about it.
  3. They are worried they will say the wrong thing which could have consequences for their job.
  4. While people argue that racism is systemic, punishment for racism is directed at the individual, so it is self-sabotaging to admit to it.
  5. People don’t view the concept of privilege as a useful way of understanding the world.
  6. People don’t agree with the methods of statements of the BLM movement.
  7. People are just not very interested in politics.
  8. The pace of change around language and behaviour is so fast that they think anything they do learn will be out of date very quickly.
Esspee · 15/09/2020 15:50

Frankly I find your question racist. Your lumping a group of people together and assuming they all have the same attitude because of their skin colour is offensive.

alreadytaken · 15/09/2020 15:51

because

it is racist for someone to impute to me certain beliefs based on the colour of my skin

they want to have a monologue, or an echo chamber, not a conversation

I dont generally talk about controversial topics with people I dont know very well and regard raising such topics before you know someone well as very rude.

MsWonderful · 15/09/2020 15:54

@Esspee

Frankly I find your question racist. Your lumping a group of people together and assuming they all have the same attitude because of their skin colour is offensive.
There’s a disclaimer in the op that she knows not all white people are like that. You must’ve missed it Smile
TheChristmasPrincess · 15/09/2020 15:54

In regards to white privilege, I don’t think some people like to be told they are privileged, especially if they feel as though they’ve come from a deprived area or struggled through childhood poverty etc. They don’t have the capacity to understand different types of privilege. E.g I am white and I came from a middle class family, however I have experienced major sexism and harassment in my daily life. I’d be annoyed if someone told me to check my privilege because I’ve never been raped, only been groped (extreme example I know but it’s the only thing I can think of that applies to myself as I know I am very privileged). I can understand this to an extent and I used to think like this too at one point. It’s about educating people to understand how the system benefits white people, males and the upper/middle classes and how we can make the system fairer.

Then there’s the fact that some people feel that if things get better for minorities, it means that things will get worse for them. They believe that tokenism is denying them jobs and opportunities that could be there’s, where in reality its trying to recruit more BAME into certain positions and giving them opportunities they might never get by using quotas. These are the people who think minorities are stealing their jobs and immigrants are getting unfair advantages in benefits, housing etc.

Some people don’t want to be tainted by the sins of their fathers, so to speak. So rather than acknowledging we have done bad things in the past and opening up the discussion on how to overcome past mistakes and make a better society, they dismiss the past and deny that society is fundamentally racist today. It’s probably embarrassing to be confronted with how racist society is (I was shocked when I started reading about it) and that we as a society are partly to blame for it. It also means that we, as citizens,have to do something to make it better, which requires effort and thought (we’ve become comfortable in our ignorance).

And last of all, a small minority of people are just pure racist. They don’t care about black or other minority’s rights and lives because they see them as inferior and as bad people. They rely on the general population’s ignorance of institutional and systematic racism to keep them subdued. They provoke and stoke tensions and then try to brush off any attempt at progress as ‘PC gone mad’ which will provoke certain types of people.

Lweji · 15/09/2020 15:54

This BLM want to defund the police.

I was a bit puzzled by that. So I did a little reading.
What is asked is that money is instead spent on education and community projects, i.e. prevention, rather than having armed repressive forces on the streets.

Surely it's better to educate and give alternatives to hood boys than making sure they end up in jail for stealing a sandwich or something.

mumsthewurd · 15/09/2020 15:55

@LovelyLovelyMe

I'm white. I'm not ashamed of it. I'm no better than any other race and I'm no worse either.

I've no problem with black people talking about racism that they have experienced.

I have a problem with the hagiography that seems to be surrounding the entire black race at the moment.

Hagiography. Big word.
Entire black race? Reaaaallllllyyyy Hmm
NewAutumnName · 15/09/2020 15:55

I think lots of people don't understand white advantage at all.

Perhaps they think that they don't use certain words and treat everyone the same and therefore racism is not as prevalent as it is.

If something doesn't affect you on a day to day basis it might/could be difficult to understand and use empathy. If you are white then you don't have racism to deal with/battle etc so no focus on it.

Perhaps some feel that the only thing they hear is negative.

Perhaps some of the BLM literature and message is not really about equality but some of the literature I read really wanted to remove police power and so the basic message was lost.

In some parts of the US or UK or other countries there is a very, very small population of people of colour and so it feels removed and somewhere else.

Just opinions pf course

Iconical · 15/09/2020 15:55

@Esspee

Frankly I find your question racist. Your lumping a group of people together and assuming they all have the same attitude because of their skin colour is offensive.
Yesterday /day before white people were told on a thread to go and educate themselves about black people and not ask questions?

For reference I am not a white person just a very confused person with all the conflicting threads and multiple deletions

DarkMintChocolate · 15/09/2020 15:56

An example of white priviledge is having the vast majority of medical books written about white patients and very few or none about something as simple as signs on black or darker skin. Even having oxymeters calibrated for white skin. Thus resulting in worse health outcomes for populations or groups with darker skin.

Actually, most of medicine is about men - doctors miss the symptoms of women's heart attacks; women's problems like endometriosis take 10 years (?) to be diagnosed on average, drugs dosages are iirc calculated as an approximation for men, adjusted downwards for weight; and in general women's complaints are more likely to be put down to anxiety, than men's.

IncandescentSilver · 15/09/2020 15:57

I'm not offended by it but what I am offended by is the assumption that all white people are the same. I look white but have a Chinese grandparent, and in common with many people with similar ancestry don't look quite white enough not to be asked where I come from in the UK and have a very Asian eye shape with epicanthic folds, so get all the insults that come along with that (as well as sunglasses not fitting).

But thats nothing compared to being told "I'm white" numerous times when I try to talk about this and being completely shut down. You can imagine the insults I've had over the years about my eye shape...