Questions for white people

[Questionspandemic]

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

Because they know deep down that actually they ARE part of the problem. And they feel guilty about it

I think it is deeply pernicious to tell people that they are problematic for existing.

Actually, most of medicine is about men

Well, yes, but this is a thread about racism, not sexism. Not sure what the "Actually" is for. It just reinforces that there is privilege. Male white privilege, mostly.
But it still remains that there is white privilege, regardless of sex.

It's possible for a white person to be racist to someone else who is also white too. Racism doesn't only affect black people.

@JaJaDingDong

It's possible for a white person to be racist to someone else who is also white too. Racism doesn't only affect black people.

How? How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

@IncandescentSilver

I'm not offended by it but what I am offended by is the assumption that all white people are the same. I look white but have a Chinese grandparent, and in common with many people with similar ancestry don't look quite white enough not to be asked where I come from in the UK and have a very Asian eye shape with epicanthic folds, so get all the insults that come along with that (as well as sunglasses not fitting).

But thats nothing compared to being told "I'm white" numerous times when I try to talk about this and being completely shut down. You can imagine the insults I've had over the years about my eye shape...

I get it. I have a grandfather from Africa and at school was teased for my lips. I also have an Irish one, a Jewish grandmother and one whose heritage is not known to me (I do wonder if also EE Jewish or even EE Roma)

I get asked subtly and Not so subtly about my heritage .

I am not black enough to be black it seems but not white enough to be white

@stayathomer

I honestly think most people dont know the right thing to say and dont want to hurt people's feelings or feel awkward. For example when Benedict Cumberbatch talked about coloured people at an awards ceremony everyone went mad, but I hadn't known that what he was saying was wrong. My son told me they were asking the kids to draw their family and friends and he pulled out his brown pencil and then paused and his best friend said 'are you worried about how to colour me in? I'm brown and I'm colouring you red' (and they laughed about it as ds was burnt on that particular day), but ds said he felt bad cos he'd made his friend feel different

Unless the awards ceremony was in the 1950s, Benedict Cumberbatch has not been living under a rock and should have known this.

And your DS' friend knows he doesn't have the same skin colour as your DS. He's not blind. Your DS needs to realise that "making someone feel different" a) is impossible because they already know that not everyone looks the same and b) suggests that making his friend think he had white skin would be better. That white skin is the default. That white skin is best and it's bad not to be white.

I think what's at fault here is probably you (and likely the teachers as well) thinking it's wrong to mention that we are different. I'm white but one of my DCs isn't and we know to talk to them about skin colour and make sure they know that [at their level] diversity is good and should be mentioned.

It's like not mentioning that someone is in a wheelchair. They already know.

I think most people will get defensive when they feel like they are being accused of something. It's human nature. I do think we need to accept that these conversations will be uncomfortable though. For some people if they don't see racism/sexism/homophobia for themselves they will deny it happens or think it's exaggerated.

Although there are a few aspects of the conversation that I think are unhelpful. For example the book White Fragility seem to be the book everyone was recommending white people need to read and yet it's a book written by a white women on how to talk to black people, it just seemed really infantilising and accusatory. We need to open up the conversation rather than shut it down. It's like a catch 22, "you don't agree with me on this point? You are just a fragile racist."

I would much rather listen to black people, especially women and their experiences, even if the conversation makes me feel uncomfortable and have to face things I didn't realise. We need a bigger range of voices in the media so we have a better understanding of peoples experiences.

Well, yes, but this is a thread about racism, not sexism. Not sure what the "Actually" is for. It just reinforces that there is privilege. Male white privilege, mostly.

You asserted there is white privilege in medicine - I don't think there is. There is white male privilege - all women are disadvantaged by the assumptions in medicine, based on clinical trials conducted predominantly on men, and I suspect the throwbacks to the 19th century of women, of being "hysterical".

Just because this is a thread about racism, does not give anybody the right to make sexist statements and then refuse to entertain the idea they are sexist, because they then chose to constrain the discussion to racism.

How?
How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

Quoting from above
Define race? Not all whites people would identify as the same race. It is not just phenotype and ancestry but cultural

I think some people are threatened by the idea of having shut the fuck up, listen and learn. Right from childhood, most people have anti-racism forced down their throats in the crude form of wE MuST bE nICe to EveRYOne so people think if they are 'nice' to people regardless of colour, race, background etc they've 'conquered' racism and don't have to worry about it any more.
When black people then demonstrate how white privilege delves far, far deeper, and pervades all aspects of our society, people prefer not to listen and don't want to think about it, because as far as they're concerned, They're Not Racist.

I think the interplay between race/racism and class is interesting. A lot of writing seems to conflate ignorance and racism with white working classes. A lot of the suggested routes for challenging racism (advocate for more equal policies within your workplace, provide a legup/mentorship for black people to get into your position, educate yourself via extensive reading/twitter) are all well and good but not particularly achievable for someone on minimum wage worked of their feet who doesnt have the time to do extensive reading or learn about the correct language/nuances.

There more I could say on this but what's very interesting is if you go back, when overt racism was more socially acceptable, it was the ill educated, sexually promiscuous lower classes mingling with other races that was considered both a problem and a sign of their lower classes. So in the 19th century white women that married black men were re-cast as prostitutes (they weren't); even in the 90s you had the council house women with 5 mixed-race babies to 5 different men stereotype. Now that there is general agreement that racism = bad (yay),white working class people are re-cast as the ignorant racists and the upper middle class as the ones who are more educated and tolerant and BETTER. My actual experience is very different to this, but also that sort of narrative is problematic because it creates animosity where there doesnt need to be and pits different groups (white privelege v class/economic privilege) against each other when actually they probably have more challenges in common than not (please note I am NOT saying white privilege isnt real because class privilege is real. )
Its hard to phase that succintly without appearing to be bringing whataboutery into the conversation or dimissing white privilege.

@Lweji

This BLM want to defund the police.

I was a bit puzzled by that. So I did a little reading.
What is asked is that money is instead spent on education and community projects, i.e. prevention, rather than having armed repressive forces on the streets.

Surely it's better to educate and give alternatives to hood boys than making sure they end up in jail for stealing a sandwich or something.

Al Sharpton made this scathing comment about 'Defund the police' and its advocates:

To take all policing off is something that I think a latte liberal may go for as they sit around the Hamptons discussing this as some academic problem,” Sharpton said.“But people living on the ground need proper policing,” he said

Genotype /phenotype

@IncandescentSilver covid has highlighted that lots of people think it is acceptable to be openly racist towards Asians. My DH has a similar eye shape to what you describe and some of the "jokes" made to him about covid are awful.

How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

So you don't think anyone has ever been racist to an Irish person (for example) then?

We are a white, mixed race/mixed culture family. People are racist.

Obviously you can't tell by looking at us, we don't have a different colour skin. But you can tell by the food we eat, the accent we have when we talk, and just because it comes out in conversation sometimes that our heritage isn't "White British".

When was the last time someone went to jail for stealing a sandwich ?

How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?
I guess it depends on whether you count anti-Semitism as racism, and count Jewish people as white?

I'm not offended. I agree racism is a problem - one of many we face. I think Black Lives Matter is a misogynistic organisation that actively erases women - and judging from twitter lots of black women agree with me.

Just as we can't stop misogyny by ranting at the average man in the street about patriarchy, we're not going to end racism by lecturing the average white person (who probably isn't racist anyway and who holds very little money or power to effect change). To do so is just empty virtue signalling. Better to target the 1% which holds the actual power to tackle things on an institutional level.

I think we all have things that make us uncomfortable and jump on the defensive.

With regards to white people and racism, alot of it might be embarrassment or we just don't want to acknowledge it, there must be other explanations for the racist behaviour, we don't want to think we are 'like that'.
Racism is huge and complex, and yes there is much white on white racism, especially to people of Roma/Gypsy/Traveller origin. I mean some of the worst racism I have heard has been towards GRT people, and yet the same (white) people spouting GRT racist terms will be defending BLM, doesn't make sense to me.

How is it even Ok for this thread to have such a title? If I put up a Question for Black people all hell would break loose !

It may sound pessimistic but for many people there is so much shit happening in the world right now that they find it hard to muster enthusiasm for causes that don't affect them directly.

Because people who have benefitted from the status quo want to believe that all their successes are down to themselves. By acknowledging racism, they have to accept that part of their success has zero to do with how wonderful/hardworking/smart they are.

@DarkMintChocolate

Well, yes, but this is a thread about racism, not sexism. Not sure what the "Actually" is for. It just reinforces that there is privilege. Male white privilege, mostly.

You asserted there is white privilege in medicine - I don't think there is. There is white male privilege - all women are disadvantaged by the assumptions in medicine, based on clinical trials conducted predominantly on men, and I suspect the throwbacks to the 19th century of women, of being "hysterical".

Just because this is a thread about racism, does not give anybody the right to make sexist statements and then refuse to entertain the idea they are sexist, because they then chose to constrain the discussion to racism.

There's a lot of assumption that Black people don't feel pain, they are given less pain killers; there are a lot of assumptions around child development that will lead, at the interface between education and medicine, to overdiagnosis of some disorders and underdiagnosis of others in Black children (more ADHD is diagnosed I believe and less ASD). There can be both racism and sexism, you know. And simple ignorance of what skin conditions look like doesn't help; ignorance of things like Mongolian Blue spots can lead to accusations of child abuse. Etc. etc.

How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

Anti-English racism in Scotland. There is legal precedent that this counts as racism in the law.