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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Questions for white people

730 replies

Questionspandemic · 15/09/2020 12:54

Why are white people offended by black people talking about racism?

Obviously not all white people are racist and name changed - in case of gaslighting.

OP posts:
PlanDeRaccordement · 15/09/2020 16:18

How? How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

I didn’t make the white on white racism comment, but there is a way how. Firstly, race is a construct based on biological and cultural differences. Secondly, when it was formally constructed by western science, various scientists proposed different arrays of races.
One scientist, said there is only 5 races- African Black, European and Middle Eastern White, Asian, Native American, and Australian Aborigine. That being the easiest to remember is what is most popular. One even proposed fewer- White, Brown, Black. But over a dozen different arrays of races were proposed some of which has over twenty different races. And these have been used variously by scientists.
In the US, Hispanics who are actually also of white European descent just like their “whites” but from Spain are considered a separate race not due to skin colour/biology but the fact that Spanish is their first language instead of English.
Race is also seen within different parts of the world. For example although an Indian or Pakistani person is also Asian, they’re not really the same race as I am even though I am in the “Asian” category too being of Chinese ethnicity.

IncandescentSilver · 15/09/2020 16:20

aintnothingbutagstring Racism is huge and complex, and yes there is much white on white racism, especially to people of Roma/Gypsy/Traveller origin.

I was once insulted hugely on FB by a random person who said she was Roma and when I pointed out that I was mixed race with an Asian grandparent, was told I looked white and didn't know what I was talking about. But she looked white to me too (although I didn't say that)!

It can be very difficult at times to tred the correct line. It has been so unpleasant for me in the past that I now cover up my mixed race background. I also has a friend of similar heritage who does the same. So apparently "looking white" means that you cannot experience racism, according to some people, even though you have non-white facial features (and dye your hair).

DarkmilkAddict · 15/09/2020 16:20

I think all this leaping to the defensive is because most people aren’t given the skills to debate society wide issues. It’s only in higher education that I encountered ways of trying to neutrally look at issues, I wouldn’t have this perspective if I’d left school at 16.

So lots of very intelligent people don’t know what else to do but take it personally. Completely due to education, I’m not criticising them, like I said I’d be just the same myself

DoubleDolphin · 15/09/2020 16:21

I dont get offended at all, I get a bit fed up with it though because it seems sometimes everything is stated to be racist. .so say if you say hello to a white person but Hi to a black person it's because you are racist. Black person didnt get the job? Must be racist....it never stops.

SoVeryLost · 15/09/2020 16:23

@Stripesgalore

‘I follow an extremely articulate black woman on Twitter who often makes me feel bad when she talks about race.

Quite often I think "that makes me feel bad/twitchy/annoyed, I should stop following her" but I don't.

And over time it's really helped me because she's right, it's not about how I feel - I have white privilege and that's just a fact and I've benefited from it for all of my life, even when I didn't notice, even when I was having a bad time.

It still makes me feel bad, because someone speaking hard truths is hard to listen to, but it's really the absolute smallest thing I can do to listen.‘

I find this incomprehensible. How are you helping anyone or doing anything by listening to some woman who makes you feel bad?

Can you share their twitter handle please?
MilkOfThePuppy · 15/09/2020 16:23

It can be frustrating when people (not just black people, but anyone) seem to think that all white people are intrinsically racist. Also annoying: People who don't understand what "racist" means and use the term incorrectly, and those who won't admit that other races can also be prejudiced against and hateful of people different from themselves. It's not the sole province of "wypipo". Hmm

I don't care if this was mentioned in the OP. It's still a huge part of why some people find it "offensive" (or annoying, etc.). It's true! Sorry if it's not what you wanted to hear.

I couldn't care less if black people want to talk about racism, but I don't like the attitude some people (other white people as much as anyone) have that if you're white, you're automatically guilty. You can't help being guilty, and you need to apologise, make amends, and be constantly conscious of your "privilege".

yetanothernamitynamechange · 15/09/2020 16:23

How does a white person perceive another white person as belonging to a different race?

Hitler gave quite a good indication as to how in Mein Kampf etc, you have the Jewish race, the gypsies, the aryan "master race" etc. All white. And he didnt invent those categories either, they were widely held, deeply held and long held. They still persist today. Its vile nonsense of course, but so is all racism. That doesn't detract from the racism faced by black people and I don't want to derail the conversation into other forms of racism, but white-white racism is definately a thing!

Plussizejumpsuit · 15/09/2020 16:23

I'm white and not offended by it. Although obviously some conversations are uncomfortable. I think uncomfortable is the place to learn. I find it uncomfortable because it is upsetting to hear what people experience and because I'm part of a system which make it happen. I suppose some other white people don't want to believe it or think because they are not personally racist and discriminatory they don't want to listen. Also lot of people aren't very clever so struggle with concepts around social politics not just race but all sorts of stuff. A bit like how many men don't want to hear about misogyny and the patriarchy.

I have mixed race family who I live dearly and want to be part of making the world better for them. I don't mean I wouldn't give a shit if I didn't have family who might experience racism. It's unjust regardless.

BogRollBOGOF · 15/09/2020 16:28

As a woman I can exprapolate the difference between being a woman and a man, from the overt being asked about my family plans at a job interview, to subtle things like putting my attack alarm on my wrist before going running and apply those kinds of equvilents to what I hear black people talking about in their experiences. That's obviously different to direct lived experience.

I have been travelling and experienced privilege over local populations. It is far harder to see within a dominant population.

The language is not helpful. "Privilege" implies upper class and a very different experience to the majority of experiences through the UK population. One of the poorest performing demographics in education is white, working class boys. I'm not intending to dismiss the difficulties that black communities (and other ethnicities such as Bangladeshi boys) face, these problems co-exist and sometimes overlap rather than being a game of Top Trumps.

Racism is another problematic word. Growing in the 80s, it was a word associated with hooligans, violence, abuse and vandalism. Humans carry bias. It's a survival instinct to risk assess. If I'm running in a lonely place and I see a figure in the distance, I'm relieved when I see she's female, or if they look purposeful such as a dog walker because I percieve that they are less likely to potentially harm me than an incongruously dressed person loitering around. It's very difficult to erase subconcious bias especially where people on either side are uncomfortable about discussing the issue, and there is a lack of information (such as specific research, again as a short woman who struggles with a man-sized world, I can extrapolate how lack of specific medical research across multiple ethnicities is problematic) to inform it.

I am absolutely not racist in the "traditional" sense of the word, but I can admit that I probably do hold subconcious bias. I wouldn't intend to offend someone, but we are all individual humans with a range of experiences, perspectives and personal boundaries which makes constructive discussion more difficult.

SharonasCorona · 15/09/2020 16:28

I don’t know why but I agree with a lot of the reasons given above. When I post experiences as an Asian immigrant in the UK on MN, my posts are met with deafening silence. People just don’t want to know.

maddening · 15/09/2020 16:30

I do think it is important to allow a space for us all to come back together.

Erradication of racism has come a long way, but no where near far enough. I see this current process as a bit like tearing a manky bandage off, we had hoped that changes we had all been making for decades had helped like putting a bandage on a wound. It hasn't healed so now we tear it off together, get the home truths out, open up the conversations which enable understandings, venting of frustrations and new ways forward to be found. But at the end of it we do need to find a way to heal the wound, come out of it together and hopefully stronger.

I hope that BAME friends and colleagues see me as an ally and know that i am there with them. I also do very much believe that racism can be beaten and that it is getting better, it is frustrating that there is no quick fix and hard see the pain that it brings to the BAME people in our communities x
Stay strong everyone, even when it feels hard x

Schoolsout2 · 15/09/2020 16:31

@Plussizejumpsuit

I'm white and not offended by it. Although obviously some conversations are uncomfortable. I think uncomfortable is the place to learn. I find it uncomfortable because it is upsetting to hear what people experience and because I'm part of a system which make it happen. I suppose some other white people don't want to believe it or think because they are not personally racist and discriminatory they don't want to listen. Also lot of people aren't very clever so struggle with concepts around social politics not just race but all sorts of stuff. A bit like how many men don't want to hear about misogyny and the patriarchy.

I have mixed race family who I live dearly and want to be part of making the world better for them. I don't mean I wouldn't give a shit if I didn't have family who might experience racism. It's unjust regardless.

Exactly this!!
nibdedibble · 15/09/2020 16:32

I’m not offended by Black people talking about racism, whether it’s their personal experiences or the historical foundations of our society. Britain’s got an absolutely monstrous history, and though I benefit from it, I also absolutely hate it. It angers and frustrates me that people can’t/won’t/don’t join the dots, so I can’t imagine what it feels like for Black people.

I have one racist side of the family and I’ve always spoken out, from an early age, against their words. I no longer deal with that side of the family. Needless to say many of them voted for Brexit. They think we civilised the world. What a fucking hateful and ignorant notion.

I do think that some people are getting somewhere towards understanding why they have actually been classed as racist by dint of upholding the systems rather than questioning or fighting the systems that allow racism to continue. It’s a hard thing to hear, that by your passivity and compliance you’ve contributed to oppression. We kind of pride ourselves on forbearance in Britain but sometimes that’s passivity and negligence by another name. I do know I and others are working really hard and appreciating the wealth of voices we hear now, but didn’t grow up hearing.

Lweji · 15/09/2020 16:32

@casio85

When was the last time someone went to jail for stealing a sandwich ?
This is what I was talking about.

time.com/4596081/incarceration-report/

There are too many people going to jail in the US for misdemeanours. And most are black males.

Plussizejumpsuit · 15/09/2020 16:32

Also not understanding the bazillion micro aggressions which constitute racism. So it might seem to an outsider that it's just a mistake thinking that the black woman is the receptionist bit the executive. Butbput that on top of all the other shit plus it being the 5yh time it's happened that week then it's starts to be a massive thing in your life. I think if you don't have BAME friends or consciously listen to BAME voices you don't have a full picture of racism.

yetanothernamitynamechange · 15/09/2020 16:33

@maddening
I agree with this 100% . Its not very "british" to talk about uncomfortable things but it is important!

Lweji · 15/09/2020 16:35

The white on white question is how can a person be racist towards someone else they perceive as their own race?

Clearly, Hitler didn't perceive Jews as being the same race as him. They were not white.

It doesn't matter if we see them all as white.

But do the Scottish actually see the English as a different race?

I really don't want to derail, but the issue was raised.

stayathomer · 15/09/2020 16:35

drspouse I think the problem is you
That was my point, I am the problem because I dont know the right thing to say but when you ask people jump on you (like, let's be honest, you did!) And my son was 7 and the idea of skin colour obviously hadn't come up between the two of them (they generally talk football cards and games!)

thatwouldbeanecumenicalmatter · 15/09/2020 16:35

@DoubleDolphin

I dont get offended at all, I get a bit fed up with it though because it seems sometimes everything is stated to be racist. .so say if you say hello to a white person but Hi to a black person it's because you are racist. Black person didnt get the job? Must be racist....it never stops.
Yes it doesn't stop. At least you can ignore and for you it goes away. Not so lucky if you're not white.
Covert20 · 15/09/2020 16:36

I’m not at all offended by black people talking about racism. It’s real, it’s a problem and I hope I can be part of the solution.

But I also see, that I am an educated, middle class woman with all the privileges that that brings me, and it costs me nothing to acknowledge racism. But if I was poor? With low levels of education and the attendant lack of opportunity? I might find it pretty hard to see my privilege. My experience (as an educated person with relative wealth) has shown me that even white people at the bottom of the food chain have privilege as compared to poorer black people, but you can understand why they can’t see that.

nibdedibble · 15/09/2020 16:39

@Lweji

The white on white question is how can a person be racist towards someone else they perceive as their own race?

Clearly, Hitler didn't perceive Jews as being the same race as him. They were not white.

It doesn't matter if we see them all as white.

But do the Scottish actually see the English as a different race?

I really don't want to derail, but the issue was raised.

The Scottish emphatically don’t see the English as a different race.

People have their prejudices and the word racism is misused.

(Not to derail, sorry.)

SoVeryLost · 15/09/2020 16:39

@Wherehavetheteletubbiesgone I suggest you go and understand what is meant by statistically more likely. www.bbc.co.uk/news/52890363 As this shows per percentage of population black people die in or after police custody at a higher rate. You can’t look at raw figures you have to compare it to the population as a whole.

Lweji · 15/09/2020 16:39

Sharpton said.“But people living on the ground need proper policing,” he said

Proper policing doesn't necessarily require more officers on the streets or more bullet money. It should mean better policing, and not more policing.
Most developed societies, with low disparities between the top and low earners, don't require heavy policing. If people get good education, good access to health and decent salaries, the police won't need to be heavily funded.

DarkmilkAddict · 15/09/2020 16:41

Really good point Covert20

cologne4711 · 15/09/2020 16:42

@FelicityPike

Usually it’s because they’re embarrassed by others actions. It’s an in built guilt thing. That or embarrassed that it still happens and sadly it’s so institutionalised that’s we can’t immediately prevent it. I don’t think offended is the right term though.
I agree with this. It's similar to, but not the same as, when people shout at you when you call out their bad behaviour (like parking in front of your drive when collecting their kids from school). They know they are wrong but don't want to admit it. White people know that racism exists, but they don't want to admit that they might be a part of it.