I’m not a fucking bigot.

[FuckHim]

Name changed.

I read the post about the attached poster. As a WOMAN who had a difficult pregnancy, as a woman who considered has had an abortion, I shared this with my DP. We’ve had arguments about woman’s rights before, and he thinks I’m transphobic. I’m not. I just know that women don’t matter in the grand scheme of things. This was another example.

DP has told me how I am wrong for being upset that woman aren’t referenced (but ‘men’ and ‘people’ are) in a pregnancy poster. I am transphobic, nasty and cruel.

Am I wrong to be upset? Considering the abuse I had when abortion came up, this matters to me. It matters so much. My self worth is at an all time low. I already felt disgusted after we had sex yesterday (his pleasure, not mine), and an argument quickly escalated where he kicked me out.

The argument has escalated this time with him taking me keys, telling me to leave, but be back by morning because he has work (so do I, and much earlier than him).

Now he’s decided I’m wrong for trying to leave and actually I’m supposed to stay with DS so he can go. I’m horrible person for ‘putting him’ in that position where I leave.

I’ve been feeling shit and low about myself. All I’ve wanted is a cuddle. In terms of the above poster, I feel like my opinion matters more as a ‘person’ who carries babies. He thinks I’m a bigot. Am I?

I don’t know what I’m asking. I know I’m done with this but I can’t cope with my opinions and views being diminished into nothing.

@Shamoo

That poster is beyond ridiculous.

And if we can’t use the term women, then we can’t use the term men. Because every argument that applies to the use of the term women applies equally to the term men. But I never hear that as part of any discussion on trans rights.

Exactly. Why am I seeing increased use of the word men? If the word woman goes, which it absolutely should not, so should the word man.

@Beamur

Your point is reasoned and I get it, honestly I do.

My point is always centred around the question, though, of proportionality.

Trans women don't want to claim the word women for their own. Logically, they want to be addressed and named as women specifically because the term denotes what we define as women. If you (not you specifically, general you) have a problem separating sex and gender and cannot accept that someone of the opposite sex may wish to identify as another gender, then you will have a problem accepting trans women under the umbrella of woman.

I know it requires a change of thinking. I got a lot of info from mumsnet when first hearing about these "trans issues" but I see now in the wider context that the lack of acceptance is unacceptable. People can call all sorts of names, a handmaid, snowflake, wokester, but I strongly believe people need to look at their lines of thinking, logic and reasoning and look at them in a wider context. I do not believe women or trans women want erasure of the word women. I believe that a minority of resources aimed at a minority of people is not the threat it is made out to be on here. I also do not believe in the slippery slope fallacy is accurate in this case in that I do not believe including trans women under the umbrella of women will have any significant negative impact on women.

I do believe that there are cases and grey areas where it is right to flip the balance and focus more on the reality of sex rather than the identity gender. But that this is in the minority and that most times, it is the right thing to allow people to live with dignity and accept their gender identity. A lot of people say on here something to the effect of "I don't discriminate I have no problem with people being trans I just don't believe that they're women". This is still transphobia.

Believing that trans women are women does not require logical gymnastics like some would believe. It simply means that womanhood does not have to be exclusive of different sexes if it is a gender construct. Sex is not a construct, but gender is a social construct - these are facts. There is no reason why we can't as a society know that most women are biological women, and some women are trans women because they identify with the social construct of the female gender. It's not prudent to pretend that the social construct of gender is not important to people, and therefore it's not fair or productive to exclude someone from a concept as socially variable as gender based on their sex. This doesn't mean anyone is asking you to believe that biological women have penises or anything like that. It also doesn't mean that all laws and anything legal related to biology are going to be erased and that no one will be able to define what a woman actually is (this is the argument I see most often on MN). Because most people are actually smart enough to acknowledge that most women are biologically women and women's issues apply to them based on biology, and that a small number of women are trans women who are faced with a different set of issues based on lack of acceptance of trans women and their own biological male issues.

I really think with a small amount of rationality that it's pretty simple. I'm sorry if it offends but I really do think transphobia in the name of women's rights is irrational.

I'm not very eloquent or good at explaining this stuff, but there is a YouTuber called Philosophy Tube made a good video about this.

Please tell us how redefining the words woman or even female works in laws that were created to assist females to overcome centuries of sexist policy and stereotypes?

Words make laws that are able to be enacted. Lack of clarity takes away the ability to enact laws.

OP. It has been absolutely crushing to discover how many men are misogynists. It must be horrible to think your partner is. Jumping on the trans rights activism bandwagon has really given some men the confidence to express their views on women in public. And the women who support it? Survival in a patriarchy l suppose. And there's long been a subtle, creeping gaslighting campaign by the likes of the Guardian and BBC. I think a lot of people who haven't paid much attention believe that there are operations by which humans really do change sex.

NB not all trans people are misogynists IMO. Far from it. I follow many trans people on twitter who stand with women. But curiously, the media seems loathe to give these people a platform.

My point is always centred around the question, though, of proportionality. and our points are focused on not losing the focus on female protections. Ones that are very much still needed but denied by people who have been lucky enough not to need them or to have noticed that they have benefitted from them.

Trans women don't want to claim the word women for their own. Then perhaps you should visit other social media platforms. There are many who do. And they tell us to educate ourselves all the time...

Cloudy if you have alter the meaning of the word woman then it’s not something you can do a small amount of the time. What is your definition btw?

Why is the word man not being threatened in the same way?

It’s fine for us as women to say no. The definition of who we are is paramount.

Woman, from the OED. It's a classifier of sex.

If the word woman includes anyone who 'identifies as a woman' then we lose sex based protections.

I have no objection to being mindful of the feelings of minority groups per se, but, Cloudy can't you see the problem there? If you have never needed the protections afforded by the Equality Act by virtue of being a woman then maybe you can't see it? The consequence of losing the legal definition of the word woman to appease a minority is too much for me, and I speak as a (former) solicitor who has had to fight for these rights on behalf of their clients.

Many trans people see this problem and respect the need to retain the meaning of the word woman to protect these rights, but their voices are not being heard either, they are also being labelled TERFS.

I still find it astonishing that we are being asked to 'be kind' and to agree to the removal of these protections which are very much based upon the way in which the word woman is defined.

Logically, they want to be addressed and named as women specifically because the term denotes what we define as women.

Thank you for engaging with this CloudyVanilla.

Can you explain what “[women] denotes what we define as women” means please? Do you intend it to mean “the social construct of the female gender”?

What about those of us who don’t “identify with the construct” but instead assert that we are women because we are female? What if we find it offensive to be told that to be women we must identify with stereotypes?

Why should your definition supplant ours?

Cloudy Vanilla
I don't think our thinking is a million miles apart really. I get that sex and gender are different concepts, but for me (and I think I am right in thinking you too) sex is fixed and biological and gender is sometimes congruent with sex and sometimes not.
My point in relation to the poster referred to is that not using the word woman in context of abortion services is illogical, an attempt to be inclusive has failed. It excludes and alienates.
Inclusive language is important. This isn't inclusive.

going to erase women from the world and stop any resources being available to them?

Resources like rape crisis centres that only allow women?

Resources like gynaecologist appointments being filled with males who want a smear test to validate their delusion?

Resources like female only prisons?

Resources like any public female only toilet, now made gender neutral - even though women have had barely a century of access to public toilets, and even now, are woefully catered for in this respect?

Resources like women’s sports scholarships and sponsorships - when women’s football World Cup winners earn a fraction of the men’s World Cup contenders beaten out in the first round?

Yeah sure. Feel free to google any of those by the way, they’re real examples. But no, women aren’t losing out by ‘being kind’ are they? But tell that to the baby who died when a trans man presented to ER and declined to share her true sex, so medical care was not correct or appropriate.

Good lord it's getting so stupid. OF COURSE abortion is a women's issue. Far more so than a man's, but sure they get named. I can't look at these things of these posts any more. It makes me so mad.

I really think with a small amount of rationality that it's pretty simple. I'm sorry if it offends but I really do think transphobia in the name of women's rights is irrational.

It doesn't offend at all, because I personally think you're the irrational one.

And the "Philosophy Tube" video is laughable.

Trans women don't want to claim the word women for their own

What trans women want or don’t want is irrelevant if ‘trans’ and ‘woman’ have no objective meaning.

It’s also impossible to protect trans rights without clear definitions in legislation and policy.

Why employ women, either of the baby producing or the trans kind if all your diversity boxes can be ticked by employing a man who presents as Male but identifies as non-binary or even female?

@CloudyVanilla I'm afraid some of your thinking is considered transphobic by many TRAs.

You are probably where i was about 2 years ago when my friend came out as trans. I was very much TWAW and just be kind. I was peak transed very quickly by some of the conversations I had with them.

You can't start adding caveats to TWAW though, that's transphobic apparently. That's where TWAW has got us to, where we're not allowed to set realistic logical boundaries that protect women's rights and safe spaces. We're not allowed to say women don't have a penis, we're not allowed to say there are biological differences between transwomen and women. It's all or nothing.

So as far as I am concerned I will never say TWAW again. Transwomen are transwomen, they are valid, should not be discriminated against and should be protected in law. However they are not and will never be women.

This person nonsense obscures the reality that gestation is an issue ONLY for females. Only for women and girls. Language like this is part of the problem just as much as Staffy's men's rights guff is. Two sides, same coin

I'm talking about the new life's rights as well as men's. A developing baby is not "your body".

I’ll be shot for this but it’s getting to the stage if your a normal hetro biological women you don’t matter anymore. I’m getting sick of all this claptrap, can’t say this don’t say that everything must be a label or victim. Maybe I’m just older 54 but everything is in your face now. My best friend had a husband who transmitted they are now really good friends they are the lucky ones.

@Staffy1

This person nonsense obscures the reality that gestation is an issue ONLY for females. Only for women and girls. Language like this is part of the problem just as much as Staffy's men's rights guff is. Two sides, same coin

I'm talking about the new life's rights as well as men's. A developing baby is not "your body".

No one is interested in your forced birth opinions as this discussion has nothing to do with that. We’re discussing women’s rights to retain their own sex descriptors.

arghh I dunno, my gut says that I am proud to be a woman. Proud of everything about being a woman (well, nearly) and I do not want the word woman to be lost.

I feel like the term TERF is bandied about really really loosely and even though I don't want anyone (trans or not) to feel less than or outside of, I feel like if I said what I said in my first paragraph publicly I would risk a lot of hate.

It just feels threatening to women generally - not trans people, I do not feel threatened by them and I am not of the opinion that trans = predatory - but the whole "agenda" and how foreceful it feels against bio-women. I dunno, it just feels a bit wrong. How do we navigate this? Like, where does it end?

@pepsicolagirl

arghh I dunno, my gut says that I am proud to be a woman. Proud of everything about being a woman (well, nearly) and I do not want the word woman to be lost.

I feel like the term TERF is bandied about really really loosely and even though I don't want anyone (trans or not) to feel less than or outside of, I feel like if I said what I said in my first paragraph publicly I would risk a lot of hate.

It just feels threatening to women generally - not trans people, I do not feel threatened by them and I am not of the opinion that trans = predatory - but the whole "agenda" and how foreceful it feels against bio-women. I dunno, it just feels a bit wrong. How do we navigate this? Like, where does it end?

There has always been specific language to denigrate and silence women.

Women whose sexual boundaries are too open- slag/ whore/ slut/ harlot/ hussy/ trollop

Women whose sexual boundaries are too closed- Frigid

Women who aren’t clever enough- Bimbo

Women who aren’t “nice” enough- Ice queen/ Battle axe/ dragon/ harpy

Women who haven’t conformed to society’s expectations of them- Spinster

Older women who don’t sexualise themselves enough- Frump

Older women who sexualise themselves too much- Mutton

Non-complaint women who need to be silenced for the good of everyone else:

1692- Witch

1985- Femi-Nazi

2020- TERF

After realising this, I happily embrace the TERF accusation. I’m a big old TERF and so is my lovely, supportive husband 😊

@cloudyvanilla .. if we as a society know that most women are biological women, why can't we refer to them as such without that being offensive to trans women.

I am a woman but I do not agree with gender stereotypes and I do not appear to have the right to freely say so.

I respect the right of any person to dress as they please but I defend the right to define myself by my biology and not a set of stereotypes.

I respect the right of any person to dress as they please but I defend the right to define myself by my biology and not a set of stereotypes.

This.

If you are not using the word ‘woman’ to describe sex then you are using it to describe a bunch of stereotyped behaviours. Behaviours forced on women by men. Both the behaviours and the force have been fought against by women for centuries.

If for some reason men suddenly do want to identify with a load of behaviours usually mocked as proof of inferiority in women, then they need to forcing a take over of our language and find a new word. “Woman” is already taken.

Stop forcing that should be.

I just signed up to Zoe app

‘What gender were you assigned at birth?’ Nearly made me not do it. Gnggng

I believe that a minority of resources aimed at a minority of people is not the threat it is made out to be on here.

I think you haven't paid attention to what has been going on can only assume that you are not aware of the wide range of people who are now included under the trans umbrella. Using Stonewall's criteria, it would now be difficult to find somebody who isn't trans.

Because most people are actually smart enough to acknowledge that most women are biologically women and women's issues apply to them based on biology

Again, you haven't kept up. Rugby Canada has decided to allow all players to compete according to their gender identity, completely ignoring recommendations from World Rugby (based on evidence from a range of interested parties) that this is dangerous.