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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what you think about a British government openly declaring that it will break international law?

385 replies

Pepperwort · 10/09/2020 19:50

This is regarding Johnson’s government’s new stated dislike of the Withdrawal agreement, which Johnson turfed May out over, negotiated, and signed.

For those not watching the news (living under rocks as it’s the top headline), the new Internal Market Bill they are presenting has a clause to the effect that any international law or court can be ignored at will. There are severe repercussions for the GFA and NI. The government have openly confirmed they will break the Withdrawal Agreement and any international law they don’t like. The EU has of course objected, and Gove has confirmed the government does not care. Not only could this scupper talks with the EU, but with the US, who have always been broadly supportive of Northern Ireland. It damages our international reputation in general and risks us being seen as a rogue state. This is beyond political posturing, just as it is beyond the old remain/ leave arguments, because we have already left. A former Tory leader and lord has spoken against it.

For voting, let’s say it’s aimed at the government. So YABU - Britain should not start its independent existence as a sovereign state by breaking laws. YANBU - go ahead, international laws are there for the breaking.

OP posts:
VinylDetective · 12/09/2020 19:08

[quote Clavinova]It’s part and parcel of membership as far as I know. Remember Cameron and the pig?

"David Cameron breaks silence on ‘false and ludicrous’ dead pig allegations."

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-pig-penis-dead-mouth-oxford-initiation-ceremony-bullingdon-club-a9111246.html[/quote]
Well he would say that, wouldn’t he? To quote someone involved in another political scandal.

Pepperwort · 12/09/2020 19:10

Essentially common sense would suggest we need a backup plan B to replace challenging trading relationships with ex partners with new partners.

Basic common sense, yes. Unfortunately our so-called leaders entirely lack any, or any concern that the basic needs of common people be met. Can you name any new partners that we didn’t do business with in the EU? Any trade agreement we make with the same partners will be less favourable than we would have got in the EU due to the “most favoured nation” clauses that are standard for them. Our biggest needs for food will naturally need to be supplied from as local a geographic region as possible because it spoils and to keep costs down, so we cannot easily find new partners, not without some new magic twisting dimensions appearing.

OP posts:
Clavinova · 12/09/2020 19:10

“I couldn’t believe someone could be so stupid as to research and write a book about me and include a story which was both false and ludicrous."

“Anyone who chooses a career in politics requires a thick skin and a sense of humour.”

"Ms Oakeshott admitted at the time that, while they had been told the story by a former MP, “we don’t say whether we believe it to be true.”

StoneofDestiny · 12/09/2020 19:16

Here you are Clavinova. You like you cut and paste........from The Guardian July 1919

A woman who acted as a scout for potential members of the Bullingdon Club in the mid-1980s has said that female prostitutes performed sex acts at its lavish dinners, women were routinely belittled, and that intimidation and vandalism were its hallmarks

The woman, who has asked not to be named, is now an academic and regards her involvement with the male-only Bullingdon Club more than 30 years ago with extreme regret and embarrassment

In her first week at Oxford in 1983, she was approached by a member of the club to identify potential recruits – a role she performed throughout her time as an undergraduate. She also had an 18-month relationship with a man who became a president of the club. In her final year at Oxford, she shared a house with Bullingdon members.

Her involvement with the club coincided with Boris Johnson’s membership and overlapped with David Cameron’s. She was not a close friend of Johnson but they had a number of good friends in common, she said. She has maintained contact with several former Bullingdon members over the past 30-plus years

“I helped recruit for the Bullingdon, and advised [the president] on its activities,” she told the Observer. “I know very well what the patterns of behaviour were. When [her ex-boyfriend] was president, they had prostitutes at their dinners. They performed sex acts, sometimes at the shared dining table, and sometimes elsewhere on the premises.”

In 2016, Ralph Perry-Robinson, a Bullingdon member in the mid-1980s, confirmed that prostitutes attended club events. “We always hire whores… prostitutes were paid extra by members who wanted to use them,” he told the Daily Beast.

The woman said: “The whole culture was to get extremely drunk and exert vandalism. Every time someone was elected, they had to have their room smashed to pieces. People talk about the Bullingdon Club ‘trashing’ places, but it was serious criminal damage.”

One incident she recalled at Magdalen College involved “a large galleried room that had just been refurbished with expensive wood panelling. Every piece of furniture that could have been broken was broken, every liquid sprayed around the room, the panelling was cracked, and everything was piled in a heap in the middle of the room. The college door to Magdalen was smashed to pieces

“I remember the clerk of works looking at the mess in complete dismay. The college had spent a great deal on the refurbishment. All the students who heard this late-night destruction were terrified, I remember.”

Bullingdon members “found it amusing if people were intimidated or frightened by their behaviour. I remember them walking down a street in Oxford in their tails, chanting ‘Buller, Buller’ and smashing bottles along the way, just to cow people.”

She recalled a party held in a room at Magdalen in the academic year 1985/6 at which guests were invited to “come as your alter ego”. Two Bullingdon members appeared in Nazi uniforms and “goose-stepped back and forth in the upstairs galleried area”. They were photographed by a friend of the woman who was taking pictures of the party

“The next morning [the pair] came round to her room. They barged in and pulled the roll of film out of the camera. She was a feisty character, and told lots of people about this. She died a couple of years ago.”

Boris was one of the club’s big beasts. He was up for anything. They treated certain people with absolute disdain

The woman who was the club recruiter said: “Boris was one of the big beasts of the club. He was up for anything. They treated certain types of people with absolute disdain, and referred to them as ‘plebs’ or ‘grockles’, and the police were always called ‘plod’. Their attitude was that women were there for their entertainment.”

She said there was a “culture of excess” in the 1980s in which the activities of the Bullingdon Club felt “normalised”. “They had an air of entitlement and superiority.”

Although many former members of the Bullingdon Club – including Johnson – have since publicly regretted their involvement in some of its activities, they developed “close-knit, generational ties,” said the woman. “Many still see each other. They have long-established networks, and they think it’s in their power to confer high office on anyone they choose. There is a bond of loyalty.”

The club was founded in 1780 as a hunting and cricket club. Two hundred years later, it was infamous for its distinctive uniform of tailcoats with white silk facings, and its heavy drinking and wild behaviour.

In 2013, Johnson – who reputedly still greets former members with a cry of “Buller, Buller, Buller” – described it as “a truly shameful vignette of almost superhuman undergraduate arrogance, toffishness and twittishness”. He added: “But at the time you felt it was wonderful to be going round swanking it up.”

A photograph of club members in their Bullingdon tailcoats taken in 1987 has been repeatedly republished since Cameron became Tory leader. The picture made him “cringe”, he said. “We all did stupid things when we are young and we should learn the lessons.”

Last October, Bullingdon Club members were banned from holding positions in the Oxford University Conservative Association. The association’s president, Ben Etty, said the club’s “values and activities had no place in the modern Conservative party”

In recent years, membership has reportedly dwindled to a handful as today’s undergraduates shun an organisation with a toxic reputation

The woman who recruited members in Oxford in the 1980s said that she was horrified at the prospect of Johnson becoming prime minister.

“The characteristics he displayed at Oxford – entitlement, aggression, amorality, lack of concern for others – are still there, dressed up in a contrived, jovial image. It’s a mask to sanitise some ugly features.”

Clavinova · 12/09/2020 19:19

Couldn't believe it when north of England areas voted for this.

July -
"Ports around the North East have backed a Government drive to set up ‘freeports’ in the UK, saying that the initiative could help regenerate coastal towns in the region."

"A Government consultation on setting up freeports closed this week, with reports suggesting that Chancellor Rishi Sunak is set to announce 10 freeports in his autumn Budget."

www.business-live.co.uk/ports-logistics/north-east-ports-back-move-18602119

"In 2016 Richmond MP and now Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rishi Sunak published a report suggesting free ports could create more than 86,000 jobs nationwide and be a boon for the likes of Teesport."

uk-ports.org/teesside-free-port-would-turbo-charge-economy/

OchonAgusOchonO · 12/09/2020 19:25

@Clavinova - The Home Office changed its immigration rules as a "concession" - the Upper Tribunal court had ruled in the government's favour in September 2019. It was a political decision to change the rules;

Good of you to post a link supporting my post on how the British government refused to implement an element of the GFA until taken to court almost 20 years later.

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 19:39

StoneofDestiny
In the early 80's I was in a very Hooray Henry set (think Sloane Ranger handbook on White Lightning)
NOTHING in that description does not fit the reality I knew.

I remember going out to supper in a Soho restaurant and smashing all of the crockery and glasses because we could
and taking ALL of the furniture out of a bar and putting it in the road outside.

I now know better.

SeasonallySnowyPeasant · 12/09/2020 19:48

I haven't RTT but in response to the OP: worried.

mbosnz · 12/09/2020 19:49

God what horrible people. And I'm sorry, how the hell didn't they know better at that age? Were they dragged up, or what?

SabrinaThwaite · 12/09/2020 19:52

@Notonthestairs

What is being side stepped in the defence of breaking international law is that this Government:-
  1. negotiated the treaty;
  2. rushed it through Parliament and rejected further calls for time to review it;
  3. ditched MP's that stated valid concerns;
  4. signed it with great fanfare; and
  5. then fed it to the nation during the election as the answer to Brexit.

The treaty was their own shoddy work. Only the most ardent Brexiteer can find anything to be proud of here.

This. In spades.
mbosnz · 12/09/2020 19:55

Sorry ListeningQuietly, that was very rude to you, in light of your post.

I just can't imagine behaving like that though - thinking of the people who have their belongings and places mindlessly trashed, for fun. Who have to bear the humiliation, the contempt they've been shown, the cost, the time to repair and replace.

I guess I'm just too working class/middle class to be able to contemplate that with equanamity.

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 20:00

@mbosnz
We were awful.
Looking back its quite surreal.
But that mindset (everybody who did not go to public school was called Scum - including me)
lives on in the Cabinet.

But Hey ! People voted for Johnson and co in December knowing what they wanted
who am I to argue?

mbosnz · 12/09/2020 20:03

Thank you so much for accepting my apology!

It's quite terrifying really, these 'minds' for want of a better word, that are running the country at a very difficult time.

I guess we just ask the orchestra to play on, and distract ourselves with rearranging the deck chairs?

StoneofDestiny · 12/09/2020 20:05

I remember going out to supper in a Soho restaurant and smashing all of the crockery and glasses because we could

Yes - and such as those in the Bullingdon Club, and voters who have put them into government (god help us) no doubt want to incarcerate young less educated and less wealthy hooligans who smash up bus shelters, spray graffiti over public building, hang around baying on street corners, abuse alcohol and vandalise peoples homes, vehicles etc.

Really is one law for the rich etc

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 12/09/2020 20:10

Sounds like a playground and field day for Boris and co bashing!

I am staying politically neutral as they are all crap but possibly some more crap than others.

However instead of all the constant negativity what would be positive and helpful are some suggestions as to potential solutions. So what would you do if you were in charge? Easy to destroy other people on any online bitchfest but seriously we need to recognise things are going from crap to worst and collectively sort out a plan (A to Z) possibly?? WTO deal for cliff edge and not cliffhanger soon!

ListeningQuietly · 12/09/2020 20:10

Stone
Another game was "egging the Albert Memorial"
I remember objecting to that at the time as I loved the structure
but they thought it was really funny to throw eggs into places that were hard to clean.
FWIW those people are now Captains of Industry and Tory donors Sad

jasjas1973 · 12/09/2020 20:10

"Ports around the North East have backed a Government drive to set up ‘freeports’ in the UK, saying that the initiative could help regenerate coastal towns in the region"

Good deflection from Bojo's excesses! and thats before we get onto his abandon with sperm... any man who fathers children and then walks away from them is scum.

If Teesport gets free port status it could become a magnet for jobs and investment. In theory this sounds great but supporters of free ports for northern Britain won’t tell you about the potential drawbacks, so we'll have to

Claims that these zones could create 86,000 jobs across the north fail to highlight this is a fraction of the number that could be lost if we leave the customs union and single market

They won’t talk about the potential hit to wages, workers’ rights and the environment, or how there is an inherent conflict between calling for free ports - which presumes a 'hard' Brexit - and Britain's ongoing negotiations with Michel Barnier

Hard to believe anyone still thinks Brexit is for the benefit of the ordinary Brit.

jasjas1973 · 12/09/2020 20:12

@ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia

Its around 3.5 more years before we can influence the Conservatives.

We can only judge them on their results so far.

StoneofDestiny · 12/09/2020 20:15

The woman who recruited members in Oxford in the 1980s said that she was horrified at the prospect of Johnson becoming prime minister

“The characteristics he displayed at Oxford – entitlement, aggression, amorality, lack of concern for others – are still there, dressed up in a contrived, jovial image. It’s a mask to sanitise some ugly features.”

And in this - Johnson was chosen by the Tories as their best - what does that tell you about the calibre of the rest of them. Think Rees Mogg lying across the benches of The Commons - that is the hallmark of this government - smug, self satisfied and 'up yours' now we've got the power.

Beggars belief how anybody though these asinine asses with no moral compass could model good government and put the needs of the country first.

KenDodd · 12/09/2020 20:21

Hard to believe anyone still thinks Brexit is for the benefit of the ordinary Brit.

I don't think anyone does. Brexit seems to be about sticking two fingers up to the rest of the world now. Do you remember their song? Fuck off EU? Really sums them up. Maybe that's why BJ is so popular.

ResIpsaLoquiturInterAlia · 12/09/2020 20:21

The thing is people (millions) actually voted in the current government with a massive majority including once in a lifetime former red supporters from the red wall constituencies. The government obviously sold to these supporters that Brexit product they all desperately sought.

We now have a weaker opposition (though obviously much sharper and able new man at the top) and the UK unions issues and infighting. Who knows what will happen in the near to long term? Perhaps the geopolitical divide may mean not only Brexit but Scotxit and a reunited EU Eire? Who knows? But many of us care and business is already hit with Covid let alone WTO Brexit deal.

Clavinova · 12/09/2020 20:21

"The woman, who has asked not to be named...was not a close friend of Johnson but they had a number of good friends in common, she said."

Hmm.

One incident she recalled at Magdalen College involved “a large galleried room that had just been refurbished with expensive wood panelling. Every piece of furniture that could have been broken was broken, every liquid sprayed around the room, the panelling was cracked, and everything was piled in a heap in the middle of the room. The college door to Magdalen was smashed to pieces.

Jeremy Hunt was at Magdalen College - odd that he wasn't mentioned in the article. (Boris Johnson, Balliol College, David Cameron, Brasenose College).

VinylDetective · 12/09/2020 20:26

Jeremy Hunt was at Magdalen College - odd that he wasn't mentioned in the article. (Boris Johnson, Balliol College, David Cameron, Brasenose College)

Perhaps he wasn’t a student there when it happened - just a thought.

SabrinaThwaite · 12/09/2020 20:31

WTO deal

WTO isn’t a “deal”.

HTH.

chomalungma · 12/09/2020 20:32

Personally, I am just waiting for the shit to hit the fan and for those people who voted for Brexit and who voted in the Red Wall constituencies to face the reality.

And for the Tories to own it.

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