NHS consultant flies to Greek island despite quarantine

[kumquat365]

Name change for this. DH and I have a friend who is an NHS consultant at the top of the pay scale whose service is short-staffed and has spoken to us about the unnecessary deaths caused by lack of cover in his speciality.

He's a keen swimmer and cyclist and booked to go on an activity-style holiday with a friend. He's not married and has no family: this wasn't a family holiday. They were booked to go to an upmarket activity holiday centre on a Greek island that in the last few days has been put on the quarantine list by both Scotland and Wales. The flight was due to depart late yesterday afternoon. Our friend's mate, who is a medic based in England, decided not to risk it and dropped out. Our friend, who works in one of the countries that had declared a 14-day quarantine on return, went in the knowledge he'd have to quarantine on return.

AIBU to feel shocked and disappointed? He's complained so much about shortages of staff in his specialism and he's just taken a decision that will mean it's even worse.

Also, what about his leadership responsibilities, and the example he is setting? Would it be okay if everyone in his team now felt like they could convert their planned one week holiday to three at the very last minute? Or expect to be able to travel where they like and then quarantine, even if they can't wfh? Would it not be a bit unfair if they're not able to?

I don't think we have any idea whether he's even a surgeon do we?

If he isn't, the OP's objections are even dafter, because most physicians can most of their work apart from the acute take (if they cover it) remotely at the moment. . Radiology/pathology - again, much can be done from home. Anaesthetists - as for surgeons - most hospitals have more than they can deploy at present.

And, whatever type of consultant he is, his absence will have been signed off by his line manager.

@elenacampana

Don’t engage with *@BovaryX*. They turn up on every NHS thread and say stupid things.

Noted and I will ignore in the future.

@Aridane

I'll say again in case it wasn't clear before: I voted YANBU because I think him complaining about staff shortages and then going off on holiday himself is hypocritical.

Do consultants actually see anyone face to face yet or are they still only doing telephone appointments?

I had a face to face in August. Someone else I know had a face to face last week, in a completely different part of the country.

@AnyFucker

We could probably start narrowing down who this guy actually is

Male consultant in Wales or Scotland recently gone to Greece on activity holiday. No children.

Come on op, just drop a couple more clues and I could probably find him. You know you want to.

I know two who could fit that bill. I climb with one sometimes. So yeah, it's not hard to figure out. Doubt if any friends would call either out for doing so, pretty much a live and let live environment and recognising that if such a decision is taken it's likely a well-reasoned and planned one. There's risk involved at some levels of those sports above the ordinary.

@Aridane

I'll say again in case it wasn't clear before: I voted YANBU because I think him complaining about staff shortages and then going off on holiday himself is hypocritical.

Do consultants actually see anyone face to face yet or are they still only doing telephone appointments?

I saw one face-to-face in August as well.

Also, what about his leadership responsibilities, and the example he is setting? Would it be okay if everyone in his team now felt like they could convert their planned one week holiday to three at the very last minute?

I haven't seen any mention of him converting anything...has the Op provided that info?

If he's essentially working part time at the moment, now seems a very good time to fit in a holiday really. Then he will be back when his department is fully open.

If he's a consultant he probably has 5 or 6 weeks of leave anyway; it's surely better that he gets it out of the way while things are quiet, rather than having a week in scotland now, then another two weeks (rather than using to quarantine now) later, when his department is trying to recover the presumable backlog they will have if consultants are currently doing part time hours. Better than when covid is ramping up again for winter too...

@notimagain

Also, what about his leadership responsibilities, and the example he is setting? Would it be okay if everyone in his team now felt like they could convert their planned one week holiday to three at the very last minute?

I haven't seen any mention of him converting anything...has the Op provided that info?

He's either using paid/unpaid leave to cover the quarantine or wfh, and it's undisputed that it's all very last minute. So either way one of the examples above will apply.

Do consultants actually see anyone face to face yet or are they still only doing telephone appointments

Well, a friend had an NHS colonoscopy in July so I hope that was face to....ahem.... face. Otherwise they would have needed a bloody long colonoscope

Going back to the converting leave question, the OP has no idea of any of the details at all so not sure there can be any assumption on that front

OP, it’s entirely up to him what he does during his annual holiday allowance and if he wants to extend it/ take unpaid leave.

Are you actually suggesting that he shouldn’t take annual leave because his profession is short staffed?

The NHS isn’t short staffed because people take holidays, regardless of whether these holidays consist of one week, or three!

The other example I gave in my original post being in relation to if he's wfh during his quarantine, what about his team members who are unable to do this.

This is a very quiet time of year for consultant leave. Generally there's lots of competition to get leave during the private school holidays. Add long as the person who approved it is happy with it, seriously, what's the issue?

it's undisputed that it's all very last minute.

I'll give it a go..the OP states

The flight was due to depart late yesterday afternoon. Our friend's mate, who is a medic based in England, decided not to risk it and dropped out. Our friend, who works in one of the countries that had declared a 14-day quarantine on return, went in the knowledge he'd have to quarantine on return.

No mention there of how much leave was booked, or if any last minute changes to booked leave were made. It's possible the consultant had already factored in possible quarantine into booked time off.

Unless you can reference another post I'd say it's just an assumption he's guilty of poor leadership or converted anything at the last minute - we simply don't have that information.

@womanvsfood

The other example I gave in my original post being in relation to if he's wfh during his quarantine, what about his team members who are unable to do this.

What about them?

@notimagain

it's undisputed that it's all very last minute.

I'll give it a go..the OP states

The flight was due to depart late yesterday afternoon. Our friend's mate, who is a medic based in England, decided not to risk it and dropped out. Our friend, who works in one of the countries that had declared a 14-day quarantine on return, went in the knowledge he'd have to quarantine on return.

No mention there of how much leave was booked, or if any last minute changes to booked leave were made. It's possible the consultant had already factored in possible quarantine into booked time off.

Unless you can reference another post I'd say it's just an assumption he's guilty of poor leadership or converted anything at the last minute - we simply don't have that information.

I didn't read the OP properly - sorry! However, if he's not taking leave which was agreed a decent amount of time in advance to cover the quarantine period then I stand by everything I've said and he shouldn't have gone! I accept that we may never find out which it is though..

@KitKat2020 there's a big distinction though between taking extra agreed annual leave which is of course fine, probably even sensible at this time of year, and unpaid unplanned leave. I agree OP is making assumptions, I had said "sounds like" in a previous post just based on my experience of various industries in which three weeks or more approved leave is unusual. But it may be different in his Trust

We recently took time off work and travelled a long way for a much awaited appointment to discuss next steps for our young child's treatment with a consultant. We were told it was essential to go to see him and really built it up as the time we might find out more about time frames (that level of expectation I appreciate was our fault)

When we got there we saw someone who said unfortunately he couldn't really tell us anything as consultant wasn't in unexpectedly, but he would discuss it with him and then write to us. We had loads of questions etc we couldn't ask but although disappointed completely understood that he may have been in urgent surgery or had higher priority work etc. But maybe he just had two weeks unplanned leave due to quarantine and therefore couldn't see any of us? There were lots of other parents and small children in same position as us

He may well have taken no leave in the past six months and now it’s either take a break or resign. As others have said nhs workers are human too and many are burnt out at the moment. Let’s hope he comes back refreshed. One man cannot be expected to fill single handedly the gaps in the service he works in and especially should not be expected to postpone annual leave indefinitely. As it was all clinical staff had their leave cancelled at the beginning of the pandemic

Final word on this. He has been holding clinics/ face-to-face consultations and from what he's said things have just started to get back to something like pre-Covid levels of activity.

He won't have been able to give advance notice that his one-week holiday was going to keep him out of the hospital for three weeks because he didn't know about the quarantine till yesterday. His mate bailed so as not to risk being quarantined.

Whyaretheredinosaursinthebath makes it clear why not being available causes problems and distress for patients. Can't help feeling that if he'd been a hairdresser (My hairdresser went to Greece despite knowing there was quarantine!) or a teacher or someone's cleaner he'd have been given a far harder time.

Funny, you said you were out pages ago. Just couldn't resist that final dig. You're not a friend. You come across as bitter, spiteful and over-invested in this person's personal life and out to slag him off on the internet. And it says WAY more about you than him. His personal life is none of your business.

@kumquat365

Final word on this. He has been holding clinics/ face-to-face consultations and from what he's said things have just started to get back to something like pre-Covid levels of activity.

He won't have been able to give advance notice that his one-week holiday was going to keep him out of the hospital for three weeks because he didn't know about the quarantine till yesterday. His mate bailed so as not to risk being quarantined.

Whyaretheredinosaursinthebath makes it clear why not being available causes problems and distress for patients. Can't help feeling that if he'd been a hairdresser (My hairdresser went to Greece despite knowing there was quarantine!) or a teacher or someone's cleaner he'd have been given a far harder time.

What are you hoping to achieve from this other than getting him into trouble and causing a whole heap of angst? Your title sounds like a daily mail headline. I think you have successfully demonstrated you are not a good friend, perhaps that you are jealous and certainly that you are inflammatory towards him due to his job. Perhaps focus on your own faults before publically criticising others.

He will have to take leave to quarantine, it will have to have been approved by someone senior to him, if he takes three weeks in one go or a week every other month it really makes no difference as he’s taking the same amount of time off. In fact it’s probably easier to take it all in one go. Stop worrying about things that really don’t concern you, I work in the NHS and none of the clinical staff have been allowed to take holiday over the past 3/4 months, so that along with all the TOIL he’s more than likely accumulated means he’s probably being actively encouraged (as we are) to take leave now rather than leaving it all until next year when everyone will want time off and it’s harder to cover him.

Can't help feeling that if he'd been a hairdresser (My hairdresser went to Greece despite knowing there was quarantine!) or a teacher or someone's cleaner he'd have been given a far harder time.

So he just didn't get a hard enough time on here despite your best efforts, consequently you come back on here after saying you were off to stick the blade in again using non sequiturs.

He doesn't need your approval or anyone else's to live his life as he sees fit within legal limits. This seems to bother you in a way that's a bit stalkerish and creepy.

you
your friend sunburnt

@kumquat365

Final word on this. He has been holding clinics/ face-to-face consultations and from what he's said things have just started to get back to something like pre-Covid levels of activity.

He won't have been able to give advance notice that his one-week holiday was going to keep him out of the hospital for three weeks because he didn't know about the quarantine till yesterday. His mate bailed so as not to risk being quarantined.

Whyaretheredinosaursinthebath makes it clear why not being available causes problems and distress for patients. Can't help feeling that if he'd been a hairdresser (My hairdresser went to Greece despite knowing there was quarantine!) or a teacher or someone's cleaner he'd have been given a far harder time.

A large part of the reason for the deserved roasting you've taken here is because of your ridiculous insistence on holding him accountable for mitigating deep structural problems in the NHS. So there isn't quite a parallel example for hairdressers or cleaners.

That said, if you'd complained that they shouldn't be going because they're depriving people of their services during the quarantine period (and in this case you'd actually know, rather than having made imbecile assumptions) then doubtless you'd have been laughed out of the place then as well.