AIBU to think teachers should not be teaching sex games to children?

[2fallsagain]

Article In today's Times about teaching resources for RSE from the proud trust.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/government-gives-pupils-sex-advice-on-the-roll-of-a-dice-80hmsplws

In summary "The government has funded a tool kit written by the Proud Trust, an LGBT charity, which includes dice featuring words such as “anus”, “vulva”, “penis” and “hands and fingers”. Children are encouraged to throw the dice twice and talk about the sexual acts that can happen using the two body parts".

AIBU to think this is deeply inappropriate and any school using Proud Trust resources needs investigating? WTF is the government doing funding pornographic material for children?

@MillyMollyFarmer

They force 13 year old children into a situation at school without their consent where they are compelled to discuss anal sex. This setting and the power imbalance between pupils and 'educators' mean they cannot refuse

This is the biggest problem. There’s no consent from the start, to explicit sexual conversations and games.

It's quite extraordinary. Imagine the reaction of sensitive, shy kids to being presented with some of the sexual activities being normalised in this allegedly 'educational' game? The porn aesthetic permeates every aspect of popular culture and now kids are being taught at school that they need to actively embrace niche sexual activities? This is some 24k BS.

My friends son was told a week before he started year 7 that father xmas didn’t exist. This would have blew his mind off. Not all kids are aware this is going on. Some parents worked very hard to keep their children’s minds ‘safe’.

This level of discussion is too much

@MillyMollyFarmer

Nobody is suggesting no sex ed. This is not appropriate and without anything accompanying it you are simply guessing as to how much it is used or what conversation accompanies it. Several teachers who taught sex ed have stated there are massive red flags with this, why would you disagree with them?

I'm not disagreeing with them, I've said if used properly it could be a tool, I've also repeatedly said that SRE curricula and resources should be not only made available to parents but activity shared, shown how resources will be used etc. If it was literally a lesson, here's the dice off you go in pairs discuss, then absolutely not. If it's used in a small way to open up a conversation then maybe. I've said most teacher's probably wouldn't use it. I was looking at the resource trying to think how it might be incorporated as part of a consent discussion, not as a let's plan a lesson around a dice and tell kids they should do what a dice says.

10 years ago I had 13 yr old boys telling me that if a girl says yes to sex it means anything goes

Veza

That's a good argument for teaching boundaries, resistance to peer pressure, the problems with porn as a male dominated medium, the absolute right of girls and boys to refuse aggressive sexual demands for the simple reason they don't want to do that. 'Everyone' does it is not an argument that should be tolerated in terms of consent. But as multiple PP have explained, this material does none of the above. In fact, it normalises niche sex to 13 year olds. In school. You could not make this dysfunctional BS up. Yet here we are.

If anything this has made me research material for my younger dc so that I can counter act what’s being pushed in to schools and to also ask the school what, if any material they will be teaching.

My eldest is 25. She didn’t have unsupervised access to the internet and we just had a talk on relationships, safe sex and the consequences of engaging in sexually activity when not ready and in school.

To me it was more important to set out why not to have sex whilst still in school.

@Byallmeans

My friends son was told a week before he started year 7 that father xmas didn’t exist. This would have blew his mind off. Not all kids are aware this is going on. Some parents worked very hard to keep their children’s minds ‘safe’.

This level of discussion is too much

This is true and a very big issue, children are in such different places and are grouped together purely on age. The other issue is no matter how much we safeguard our children at home they are exposed to so much by their peers. I wish mobiles could be banned in school so at least children couldn't show each other porn, unfortunately a lot of parents don't put any safety on phones and kids access and show their friends.

I'd still be really interested to see the accompanying notes to this - in other words the lesson plan, discussion activities and further resources that accompany it.

It's perfectly possible to deliver sex education that addresses porn culture and discusses issues like anal sex sensitively and appropriately etc without this kind of thing. I was an older teenager around the time that internet porn first became readily available, and I was sexually active. I was repeatedly pressured to do anal by a sexual partner, and while I was aware of the importance of consent to sex as a whole, I could have done with some teaching around the idea that consenting to sex in general doesn't mean that you have to then accept anything during sex that you don't want to do. Of course, children need to have it explained to them that, if they're watching porn, what they're seeing isn't realistic and may well be painful or degrading to the people involved.

It seems like some people are saying it's a choice between this or a 'no sex before marriage or you'll get pregnant and DOOM' education. These are not the only two choices- what we need is sex education designed by experienced educators, health professionals and child development experts that handles these topics safely and sensitively. This is not it.

I think it's naive and unfair to assume that teachers can use their professional judgement around this. I'm not suggesting that individual teachers will use this to groom children, although it's possible. What I am saying is that it breaks down boundaries that are there for good reason. I taught for years and I have the professional expertise to know how to adapt the maths/English curriculum etc to meet the needs of a class and individual students, because I KNOW them well enough to make these judgements and I'm trained and experienced. What I don't have the knowledge to do is to make decisions about what kind of sex education the children in a class are ready for- I don't know the children personally enough for this (and nor should I), and I'm not trained to do it. Although in this case, this activity is appropriate for no one so it's quite easy. But it may not be as simple as saying you don't want to teach it in some schools.

I've said if used properly it could be a tool
Which is in disagreement with the experienced sex ed teachers on this thread who do not think so. Could you explain why you think we should disregard what they’re saying?

I don't think these dice are intended to be used in a discussion around consent- consent isn't mentioned anywhere as far as I can see. It's encouraging children to think creatively about how their bodies and objects can be combined.

@BovaryX

10 years ago I had 13 yr old boys telling me that if a girl says yes to sex it means anything goes

Veza

That's a good argument for teaching boundaries, resistance to peer pressure, the problems with porn as a male dominated medium, the absolute right of girls and boys to refuse aggressive sexual demands for the simple reason they don't want to do that. 'Everyone' does it is not an argument that should be tolerated in terms of consent. But as multiple PP have explained, this material does none of the above. In fact, it normalises niche sex to 13 year olds. In school. You could not make this dysfunctional BS up. Yet here we are.

The last thing I want to do is normalise anything that is detrimental. Honestly over the years I've had so many conversations with children ('and teens about consent and the ability to say no. I remember as a teen when I was about 18, a 15 year old coming to me upset her bf didn't fancy her because it had been drummed into her that boys were only after one thing and he didn't want sex so she thought he didn't fancy her/she was ugly etc. Rather than the bf not being ready for sex. This aggressive expectation of sex has only amplified in recent years. I'm not saying the dice is the best idea ever, I clearly have not articulated myself well, I don't want children forced to participate in anything, but I do want them to know the difference between porn and real life. I have worked in some schools where parents don't care their 11 year olds are coming home drunk with hickies, while other parents do everything they can to protect their child's childhood and prevent them being exposed to inappropriate materials. I know one child no phone, no unsupervised internet went into yr7 new friend shows him porn in the first week. We need to find a better way to teach SRE, I don't think one charity or organisation should be solely responsible, there needs to be collaboration, and safeguarding, there needs to be a lot more active involvement of parents. Parents should be able to raise any concerns about what/how/why something is being taught before they're children are in those lessons.

The ‘kids are going to have seen porn anyway’ is becoming a bit ‘cancel the cheque’. RTFT.

Imagine this conversation at a school for year 7:

“Hi Jimmy/Jane, did you have a nice weekend?”

“Yes thanks Miss. I played a game with Uncle Bob/Father Peter/Football Coach Barry. He brought a game round where you had to role two dice and come up with with a description about how two things went together.”

“Sounds fun. What sort of things?”

“Penises, anuses, objects and some other stuff [shrugs]. He said it’s a good way to learn about that sort of stuff. And they he told me this story of how a friend of his once got a lightbulb stuck up his arse! I thought it was hilarious! He then showed some porn. Apparently a guy on TV called Dr Christian Something thinks it’s a good way for kids to learn about sex. Some of the other kids were really embarrassed, but I’m used to him talking about rude things.”

“Ooookaaay.....”

There would be klaxons and red flags 🚩 🚩 going off everywhere.

But if it’s done in schools with some anonymous male writers coming up with such games, and teachers innocently providing such materials on behalf of these anonymous men, to challenge that makes people prudish and old fashioned.

Also, sorry to keep banging on, but you don't need dice or gimmicks to talk to classes about sex. To give an example:

The way I always worked (and most of my colleagues) was to present whatever the material was in the lesson, and give children a little stack of post its on their desk so they could write down any questions or anything that confused/worried them. I said you don't have to write anything if you don't want to, set boundaries around we never laugh at anything that's asked, I'm not going to say who asked what etc, and that there might be some questions I can't answer or might come back to in a different lesson, but it doesn't mean your question was wrong or bad.

I think this is safer for a lot of reasons. It means that anyone who doesn't want to actively participate doesn't have to. It means that children don't have to describe or talk about sex acts in front of others and means that children who would otherwise be too shy to ask can join in. It also gives me a bit of thinking room to decide how to address the issues in an age appropriate and sensitive way. Occasionally a question might raise concerns for me and I can deal with this through the proper safeguarding channels instead of it being out there in front of the whole class.

I'm not saying that this is the best or only way to do it- but what I'm trying to say is that there are ways of having honest discussions that address children's real life questions and thoughts about sex without playing games that blur the boundaries of appropriate talk between children and adults AND communicate the idea that sex is actually about the combinations of what can be shoved where.

[quote IAmFleshIAmBone]@Cabinfever10 I totally agree it's really problematic. And I'm not surprised at all that this is being promoted by an 'LGBT' charity. [/quote]
I hope you’re not implying what I think you are.

@shreddednips

It's perfectly possible to deliver sex education that addresses porn culture and discusses issues like anal sex sensitively and appropriately etc without this kind of thing. I was an older teenager around the time that internet porn first became readily available, and I was sexually active. I was repeatedly pressured to do anal by a sexual partner, and while I was aware of the importance of consent to sex as a whole, I could have done with some teaching around the idea that consenting to sex in general doesn't mean that you have to then accept anything during sex that you don't want to do. Of course, children need to have it explained to them that, if they're watching porn, what they're seeing isn't realistic and may well be painful or degrading to the people involved.

It seems like some people are saying it's a choice between this or a 'no sex before marriage or you'll get pregnant and DOOM' education. These are not the only two choices- what we need is sex education designed by experienced educators, health professionals and child development experts that handles these topics safely and sensitively. This is not it.

I think it's naive and unfair to assume that teachers can use their professional judgement around this. I'm not suggesting that individual teachers will use this to groom children, although it's possible. What I am saying is that it breaks down boundaries that are there for good reason. I taught for years and I have the professional expertise to know how to adapt the maths/English curriculum etc to meet the needs of a class and individual students, because I KNOW them well enough to make these judgements and I'm trained and experienced. What I don't have the knowledge to do is to make decisions about what kind of sex education the children in a class are ready for- I don't know the children personally enough for this (and nor should I), and I'm not trained to do it. Although in this case, this activity is appropriate for no one so it's quite easy. But it may not be as simple as saying you don't want to teach it in some schools.

This. All of it.

And kids need to be taught to say no.

I still can’t get over the fact it’s “objects”. Not toys, sex toys, dildos or vibrators, which are specifically designed for appropriate sex use, but “objects”. Anything inanimate just lying around. Why, just WHY does anyone, let alone a child, need to come up with creative ways to use whatever object might be to hand FFS?

I honestly think some fetishist wrote it and can’t believe their luck that it’s sneaked though without scrutiny.

@shreddednips that’s very similar to what I used to do. Sometimes if I knew the kids well enough (OMG Ms Born is doing Puberty with us instead of Perimeter!) I’d invite spoken questions.
Cue class clown asking “what’s a wet dream” (or similar) in the hope of embarrassing me. Once I’d answered the question fully and explicitly, not in the least put out by it, they settled down and we had really useful discussions. I did always say that if they had questions they’d prefer to write down just to do so and give to me any time. It was one of these, slipped into a Maths book, that alerted me to a case of parental sexual abuse.

Not sure telling young teenage girls girls to make their anus up for grabs is teaching sexual self esteem.

I would assume that the consent part of the game is a verbal discussion between teacher and students! It's the focal part of every PSHE sex ed class I've ever been involved in. Teachers don't need to be instructed to teach consent by a dice game, it's a core aspect of the curriculum

This is literally just a gimmick to ease awkwardness. teachers use them all the time

So where is the teacher's resource pack prompting those discussions? Why are the words boundaries, clitoris, consent etc not on that dice?
Or are we normalising females (the biological kind) to accept that sex is about males inserting objects into them?

Borntobequiet, I had a similar experience where a written question alerted me to something serious. I found that teaching like this did lead to children asking spoken questions which was fine too. I think the key here is that as adults we have to guide the lesson, one of the many huge problems with this activity is that it's so open that as a teacher you lose control of the direction.

I feel sorry for teachers being asked to use this. It requires that you put aside everything you know about appropriate boundaries between students and teachers.

My DD's school has a large proportion of Muslim girls. While Muslim girls, like any other girls, have sexual desire that they are working out and trying to learn about, not sure rebranded sex shop dice games are the way to do it.

So where is the teacher's resource pack prompting those discussions?

I've just realised that you can buy it for £75. Also the charity have been running workshops for educators and local councils at some cost. I wonder if there have been profits made and who is reaping them?

@NotBadConsidering

I still can’t get over the fact it’s “objects”. Not toys, sex toys, dildos or vibrators, which are specifically designed for appropriate sex use, but “objects”. Anything inanimate just lying around. Why, just WHY does anyone, let alone a child, need to come up with creative ways to use whatever object might be to hand FFS?

I honestly think some fetishist wrote it and can’t believe their luck that it’s sneaked though without scrutiny.

Quite

@bellinisurge

My DD's school has a large proportion of Muslim girls. While Muslim girls, like any other girls, have sexual desire that they are working out and trying to learn about, not sure rebranded sex shop dice games are the way to do it.

Same here although it’s primary but it’s certainly got me thinking about secondary education and for my dd to be able to be sheilded amongst other religious denominations that really would except this