Who is looking at increased wfh long term?

[jorgeous]

Hello all,

The plan at both mine & DHs company was to go in on a rota basis from September. This is still going to happen but far less frequently than we anticipated eg 4 days a month in the office. Plus it's completely voluntary. Companies are making noises about this becoming the norm, reducing HQ space & competitors are acting similar & some have made the switch.
There are lots of benefits to wfh although I do like the social aspect of the office. However because we are not allowed meetings of more than 2 people, gyms, canteens, coffee stations etc are all closed very few are coming back so there is little social aspect.
If this is the norm we really need to rethink our home environment & have a proper office for both of us.
I feel a little sad tbh, anyone else in the same boat?

Or are they balanced on the edge of the bed in a bedroom or alternating at the kitchen ranks with a spouse

This is a very real problem. Many of my co-workers live in house shares and have to work from their bedrooms. Many are in studio flats with a partner who is also working from home, and a child- so no separate space at all.

London weighting is tricky - even where not part of your salary, London pay is higher to reflect the London recruitment market. If I was to recruit someone in say Dorking I’d pay less (presumably, I don’t know if dorking has a special premium!).

If the person in Dorking had their home as their place of work and continue to travel into London office twice a week, they can now claim that on expenses. Twice a week is probably not much less than an annual season ticket, which must be around £3,000 from post-tax income. As a company I’d say they have a small pay cut, get to claim their expenses, and everyone is win-win.

But plenty of people still live in London and plenty won’t be going to an office at all. I’d be interested to see the arguments on that.

I'm not sure though how legally a company can reduce someone's salary. How do you navigate that an employee is saving on commuting but not utilities etc whereas a company will save on those.

This was an interesting ruling

www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-the-swiss-court-ruling-on-home-workers-rent

@daisypond I guess some people may be able to afford to move to cheaper areas to offset some of those problems?

@jorgeous

I'm not sure though how legally a company can reduce someone's salary. How do you navigate that an employee is saving on commuting but not utilities etc whereas a company will save on those.

This was an interesting ruling

www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20200707-the-swiss-court-ruling-on-home-workers-rent

But in my example you could refuse to let the Dorking person have their home as their place of work, and therefore they can’t claim travel expenses to the office. There aren’t necessarily much office savings when tied into a lease.

[quote jorgeous]@Polnm I didn't know there was that much discrepancy. Ly 3 friends/neighbours moved back north & their salaries didn't drop by more than 15% (accountant, solicitor & consultant) [/quote]
This is finance sector. Hard to recruit in London We work on 50% more for London when recruiting and so a £60k job is £85-90 and the people in London are usually not as experienced (or good)

@Thneedville I think it's complicated tbh. Mine & DHs firm subsidise the gym, all the restaurants/coffee kiosks, the bar. Id say they have made substantial savings.

But plenty of people still live in London and plenty won’t be going to an office at all. I’d be interested to see the arguments on that.

We have been told that we keep London weighting - which is more to do with housing costs and general increased living costs than commuting - but if we move house, we may lose it.

@Polnm do you mean out of London?

Again this is an old fashioned idea. Companies do not have the money to keep an office open in case everyone decides to go in on one day . Hot desking will become more the norm if you don't already have it in your office.

Sorry, that was an editing fail on my post, it should have read “NOT having an office space big enough for everyone to be in at once”. I don’t suppose for one moment that any company will keep a large office in case everyone decides to go in at once - there will almost certainly be rota systems or allocated days.

It probably won’t be a reduction (although they bid what BA have just done) rather something like BA did previously of recruiting all new staff on different pay and conditions and having legacy staff who finish over time

I wouldn’t like to own a city centre studio or 1 bed flat at the moment

I can understand more if it’s just employees who use space. But long term clients will want meetings again and what will those who’ve just offices do?

I doubt they are closing it all down though unless in dire straits?

@Polnm I'm sure they are big discrepancies with London salaries in certain areas but as a blanket rule vs the actual cost of living I think even with a 20% salary drop many workers wouldn't necessarily be less better off outside of London.

[quote jorgeous]@Polnm do you mean out of London? [/quote]
Which bit?

We pay £60k for a job in Leeds and £85/90k for the same job in London.

I see a massive rise in those places where you can book a desk for a day or a meeting room.

I can see a huge rise in those places that rent a desk or meeting room.

'I’m in London and my office (part of a large multinational) is closing permanently. There will be no need for many people to live in London or even near it. It raises the question of what is the point of cities.'

Seriously? I don't live in London for work..it's theatre, concerts, great restaurants, museums, galleries etc. I know a lot of those are closed right now, but it won't be forever. The restaurants, galleries and museums are open now. I'm just about to become a volunteer at London Zoo, which I'm really excited about.

@MarshaBradyo we've heard musings of much smaller hubs in different locations with office working & nice meeting rooms. But not sure how people who get rid of everything will do it, maybe restaurants, hire space?

@WickedEmoji

I see a massive rise in those places where you can book a desk for a day or a meeting room.

Yes We Work guy said things were going well on R4.

For my old work it would be pointless as the majority job was client meetings pretty much and 8 big rooms in use a day. Client prefers the security of a fixed location.

@Polnm oh so you pay the people in London more even though they are less good.

I can see a huge rise in those places that rent a desk or meeting room.

Me too. If I was one of the struggling coffee shops in my local town centre I’d be offering a “Work Away From Home” package: want a break from the same four walls? Pay £x and you can have a socially distanced table for y hours, free WiFi and a hot drink.

Thankfully I work in a university so no pressure to stay 'on brand'

We are delivering 90% of our teaching online until Christmas, although will hopefully be able to steadily increase the amount of face-to-face stuff we do with students, which is important. It's definitely the end of the packed lecture hall though.

However my personal teaching timetable means I will probably only absolutely need to be in once a week until January, and possibly even less afterwards awaits accusations of being a lazy academic. I may decide to head into the office once a week just for a bit of variety and to catch up with colleagues, but all meetings have been scheduled online for the next academic year anyway.

For me, it works. I love being at home, hate the commute, have been working very productively from home. I have so much more time in the day for family, exercise, baking, gardening. I'm even doing some online courses that I wouldn't have considered if I had to factor a commute into my working day again. I still keep in close contact with my students, and in fact I am probably more able to respond to them quickly with a remote set-up than if we needed to arrange eg: office meetings. The feedback from them regarding online teaching has been really good - much better than I expected tbh! Although I do feel a bit sad for the new freshers who will miss out on a lot this term.

I agree though that flexibility has to be key. I am incredibly lucky to have a decent home set-up but lots of my colleagues don't, particularly the younger ones. The social side of work has never been a big thing for me either - I like my colleagues but they're not my mates - so this doesn't bother me, but again for some it's a much bigger deal.

I do think there will be a pretty big shift though. As a PP said, the genie is out of the bottle.

@beguilingeyes I agree those elements make cities very attractive but who knows what they will look like post Covid, the arts are really struggling.

I'm a born & bred Londoner who loves it but still think it won't be the same without the hustle & bustle of workers.

[quote jorgeous]@Polnm oh so you pay the people in London more even though they are less good. [/quote]
Yes, they tend to churn through jobs much quicker particularly early in their careers and tend not to be as good or experienced. Moving jobs is a good way to get a pay rise and their is a shortage. Unclear what the impact of leaving the eu will be on recruitment as well,

@MothAndRabbit

Thankfully I work in a university so no pressure to stay 'on brand'

We are delivering 90% of our teaching online until Christmas, although will hopefully be able to steadily increase the amount of face-to-face stuff we do with students, which is important. It's definitely the end of the packed lecture hall though.

However my personal teaching timetable means I will probably only absolutely need to be in once a week until January, and possibly even less afterwards awaits accusations of being a lazy academic. I may decide to head into the office once a week just for a bit of variety and to catch up with colleagues, but all meetings have been scheduled online for the next academic year anyway.

For me, it works. I love being at home, hate the commute, have been working very productively from home. I have so much more time in the day for family, exercise, baking, gardening. I'm even doing some online courses that I wouldn't have considered if I had to factor a commute into my working day again. I still keep in close contact with my students, and in fact I am probably more able to respond to them quickly with a remote set-up than if we needed to arrange eg: office meetings. The feedback from them regarding online teaching has been really good - much better than I expected tbh! Although I do feel a bit sad for the new freshers who will miss out on a lot this term.

I agree though that flexibility has to be key. I am incredibly lucky to have a decent home set-up but lots of my colleagues don't, particularly the younger ones. The social side of work has never been a big thing for me either - I like my colleagues but they're not my mates - so this doesn't bother me, but again for some it's a much bigger deal.

I do think there will be a pretty big shift though. As a PP said, the genie is out of the bottle.

I hope it isn’t Durham

Their admin and communication has been atrocious but I bet they think they are doing a good job. I wanted to do an MA but have given up. Can’t speak to anyone, email communication is dire, contact forms are not responded to.