Who is looking at increased wfh long term?

[jorgeous]

Hello all,

The plan at both mine & DHs company was to go in on a rota basis from September. This is still going to happen but far less frequently than we anticipated eg 4 days a month in the office. Plus it's completely voluntary. Companies are making noises about this becoming the norm, reducing HQ space & competitors are acting similar & some have made the switch.
There are lots of benefits to wfh although I do like the social aspect of the office. However because we are not allowed meetings of more than 2 people, gyms, canteens, coffee stations etc are all closed very few are coming back so there is little social aspect.
If this is the norm we really need to rethink our home environment & have a proper office for both of us.
I feel a little sad tbh, anyone else in the same boat?

@Tellmetruth4 I’m a manager in a very different sector and I completely agree.

My team have all also saying how much they can get done at home but to be honest, whilst everyone has done a great job of getting everything done in tricky circumstances, I’ve not noticed much evidence of extra output or ideas for enhancements. And if they’re getting more done in the time given then we can reduce the size of the team and save money by not recruiting the next time someone leaves. And before anyone jumps on me for that comment we’re public sector so have a duty to save money when we can.

I’ve not noticed much evidence of extra output or ideas for enhancements

I agree. I feel that brainstorming ideas works better face to face. In many ways shouting across the office for a supplier's contact email address gets quicker results than posting a message in Teams chat hoping that someone will notice it quickly.

To be fair, we have all pulled together remarkably well, but IMO nothing replaces regular face to face contact with work colleagues, even if it is only once a week.

The idea that people shirk when they're not in the office is really pretty much bollocks imo. Work might not necessarily always take place between the standard Mon-Fri 9-5 anymore but many of us are working harder than ever. I really feel for anyone who has a boss that doesn't respect that fact

Tbh there are people in the teams I work with who I strongly suspect are shirking, but it’s a performance issue not a WFH issue.

And in all honesty I’m personally finding it requires a lot more self-motivation than working in the office. I was absolutely flat out from March-August because workload was through the roof, but honestly I have probably been skiving a bit the past couple of weeks in a way I might not have if I was in the office with colleagues around me seeing that I’m on my phone half the afternoon

What about future employees? Is there just going to be a black hole in recruitment?

Ds has just graduated and nearly all his friends have had their graduate training schemes either postponed or in several cases completely cancelled. Who is going to train a bunch of new graduates? Or any new employee? Dn was a new recruit at a law firm when Covid struck. She is still furloughed and the suspicion is they are going to make all the trainees redundant.

It’s the time for the middle aged and settled. The drawbridge is firmly up and wfh people are indifferent to those drowning in the moat.

WFH may work well for internal communication/collaboration, but it's looking to be a bloody nightmare for the general public/customers/patients wanting to contact organisations.

I've had to contact Sky, Virgin, BT, HMRC, local GP surgery, local oncology dept, Direct Line, RAC, etc over the past few weeks. No one answers the damn phone. Always queues and "your call is important" for an hour or two until you lose the will to live. Online services such as live chat have disappeared. No email addresses are ever given out. Webpages for the usual online servicing are out of order. It's a sodding nightmare.

How people can say that WFH is working is beyond me when it comes to outside the organisation.

Redirecting incoming phone calls is about the simplest of things to set up and should be ideal for people working from home, but no, either the organisations can't be bothered to set it up, or the people supposed to be WFH simply aren't answering the phone.

We are. Indeed a discussion is beginning. I think it will end up as two days per week for most people.

@IrmaFayLear

What about future employees? Is there just going to be a black hole in recruitment?

Ds has just graduated and nearly all his friends have had their graduate training schemes either postponed or in several cases completely cancelled. Who is going to train a bunch of new graduates? Or any new employee? Dn was a new recruit at a law firm when Covid struck. She is still furloughed and the suspicion is they are going to make all the trainees redundant.

It’s the time for the middle aged and settled. The drawbridge is firmly up and wfh people are indifferent to those drowning in the moat.

Fully agree. It's going to really impact the younger trainees/juniors etc who can't work from home until they're trained and experienced.

In accountancy, firms usually take on trainees in the Autumn. I've looked at loads of websites and nearly all are saying this Autumn's recruitment is cancelled both for graduates and apprentices.

My son had organised a Summer job with a local accountants between June and September - that was cancelled.

If experienced staff are WFH then there's no one to train up the next generation who are usually trained and gain experience with "on the job" training/mentoring. You can't do that if you're not in close proximity.

In accountancy, firms usually take on trainees in the Autumn. I've looked at loads of websites and nearly all are saying this Autumn's recruitment is cancelled both for graduates and apprentices

My son had organised a Summer job with a local accountants between June and September - that was cancelled

We’ll see this repeated across many industries but that’s not because employers are throwing up their hands and saying Oh no, we can’t train them cos staff are wfh! The reason for a pause on taking on additional staff, also known as increasing overheads, is the economic uncertainty caused by Covid (on top of Brexit).

If and when businesses need to hire and train staff then they’ll need to have training in place. That might mean experienced staff coming into the office to do that training, it might involve linking them with mentors and all manner of other things - there are people who earn their living coming up with ways to do this!

Do people really think a black hole in recruitment in professional roles could be put down to the fact some workers are now doing their jobs in their homes instead of an office building? Surely any reduction in recruitment in these industries will be because businesses are holding fire while they wait to see what the economy looks like down the line.

If experienced staff are WFH then there's no one to train up the next generation who are usually trained and gain experience with "on the job" training/mentoring. You can't do that if you're not in close proximity.

Same in my job (public sector finance). Training is very much by shadowing and on the job working along side someone. The idea of people WFH permanently/full time and just popping into the office to train someone won’t work, it’s not like watching someone for a day and that’s it, it’s a more gradual process of working alongside them for a period of time.

Ds’s friend started at a big name accountancy firm last year. He is now wfh with no date given for a return. Training is online for exams. He is thoroughly depressed. He did not sign up to sit in his childhood bedroom from 9-5 every day working hard but with no “twiddly bits” that working for a big firm offers.

Tbh there are people in the teams I work with who I strongly suspect are shirking, but it’s a performance issue not a WFH issue.

I agree. The staff who needed micro-managing when WFH also needed micro-managing in the office. Fortunately they found another job and left.

@IrmaFayLear I agree that it’s an awful time for the young. We have just taken on a couple of new members of staff because we are so busy, but they are people with experience. Companies are struggling to keep afloat and need new members of staff to be able to hit the ground running, so to speak.

Redirecting incoming phone calls is about the simplest of things to set up and should be ideal for people working from home,

I think some companies don’t have the right systems in place. We were all supplied with headsets and softphone software on our PCs so we can ring any telephone within the UK. I realise that I am lucky that I work for a company that had the foresight to move to Office 365 a couple of years ago, and that has a large IT department.

Surely any reduction in recruitment in these industries will be because businesses are holding fire while they wait to see what the economy looks like down the line.

Many firms rely on a steady stream of trainees/juniors every year. It's not as simple as saying "we'll have a year off". As trainees progress through the years, they get pay rises, they need to be moved to different depts for breadth of experience (as required by professional bodies), they are needed to fill the shoes of older/experienced staff who leave/retire/go on maternity leave etc etc. It ruins the whole dynamic of the firm. Last year's new starts train this years' new starters, 2 years' ago new starters train last years new starters, and so it goes on. Breaking that will cause untold damage to the firm. Not least that you have expensive/experienced staff doing the work usually done by the latest trainees so those jobs become loss making.

How does one monitor wfh performance? I don’t mean in jobs where there are “tasks” to be completed, but, let’s say, if you are a nebulous “manager”? Is it easier or harder to get rid of someone? I’ve had one or two jobs where frankly I was under-occupied. I can imagine in some sectors this is rife. Will it now be simpler to identify non jobs?

Full time office work has gone forever, there will be hot desking hubs where you book a desk by the hour.*

Way too soon to say.

I can imagine in some sectors this is rife. Will it now be simpler to identify non jobs?

Potentially, long time ago I worked for a big public sector dept. It was ridiculous, I'd run out of work at 1pm & was told to slow down.

Both DH and I were wfh before covid, and noticed a huge improvement in how we could do our jobs because everyone was having to share info 'properly' rather than just having a chat by the coffee machine.

We live in a small suburb of a northern city and it's buzzing atm. If I go out around lunchtime (am furloughed pending redundancy) I quite often meet people I know who are wfh and are out for lunch locally or using the local butchers and greengrocers, where they might normally have nipped into Sainsbury on their way home.

Clearly there is going to be some pain, with city centres becoming less busy and offices becoming fragmented or rota'd, some business have ended up in the wrong place, but there are opportunities for services, coffee shops etc in other areas.

My worry is public transport links. They were already suffering in many areas and I'm concerned that this might be a death knell for many bis lines etc and I think that will be hugely negative because it will be so difficult to replace.

My worry is public transport links

Yes. This is going to be a massive issue where I live. We are rural, and have hourly trains, which are currentlyrunning mostly empty, as are the buses. How long can Northern Rail and Stagecoach runs mostly empty transport?

The govt must surely be giving the bus companies, etc grants to run nearly empty services?

I’m a contractor & my main client has everyone in the office full time, central London. It’s a sales industry & the MDs strongly believe the sales team need to be in the office environment to hit targets. As I’m a contractor I’m more flexible but they still prefer to see me in person. I service my two smaller clients entirely remotely.

Trains are still quiet & lots of places are still closed which is sad. Makes the whole area look a bit run down rather than buzzing. We have a busy Pret but that’s because everyone else has closed. I’ve noticed that a few more cafes have opened up in my main train station which is promising.

I love WFH. I see my kids more, DH more, it feels less like “work” & I’m less tired by cutting out the long commute. But the social aspect of being back in the office is really great, especially as everyone is there. I’ve definitely missed that.

I’m expecting to need to go into London 3 days a week, the rest of the time remote, until Spring next year at least which is an ok balance for me

@user1497207191 not every business! I am WFH answering the phones and yes, there are queues because we are busy, but it's very, very hard to skive in a contact centre
Everything is timed from your lunch to your toilet break to the second, logging on and off
I would guess it's either because they're getting slammed or staff still furloughed
Our queue times are never more than 10 minutes but this week I've been taking around 180 calls in 8hrs so it's busier than usual

Herding people like lamb back to line the pockets of landlords and capitalists ... www.bbc.com/news/uk-53942542

Does it really matter where we work as long as it gets done?! We have proven technology today.

Wouldnt it be better to reduce the excess offices and convert them to much needed affordable housing?

Remember what it was like shouting "can you move down please" on overcrowded trains or "theres really no more room here!!", the overpriced food/drinks (bought from a private equity owned chain probably)... vs having a home cooked dinner with your DC (after school hopefully)?

Isnt that what progress should look like?

I love WFH and there is no way I want to go back to a large open plan office where it’s deafening and you struggle to concentrate with people laughing, talking, chattering, on the phone around you. The air on would be on at full blast so you would need layers and blankets in the summer, come September onwards everyone fell ill at some point spreading it round as they came back too quickly for fear of being off sick too long.
Personally it’s been great both of us wfh, we get to have breakfast, lunch and dinner together as a family and can see the children more. You log off and step back into family life instantly instead of facing a long commute.
WFH is here to stay, the genie is out of the bottle and companies can no longer justify saying no to wfh to their employees when they would make excuses before of why it wasn’t possible.

No clue what my company's long term plans are. Some departments are being told to be in the office 2 days per week from Sept. Others (including mine) are totally free to choose.
Despite being an introvert, I've chosen to go back one day per week as I miss the little chats with people, the commute (by bike) and a break from DP and DC.

I work for a large professional services firm and we're aiming to have everyone back 3 days a week by mid-October, but with flexibility for those who need it. Our school has v limited wraparound care when they reopen so I can't go back to office yet. I'm fine with being in office but not with being on a train with 100+ plus strangers when there's no test and trace system.

@parched are you in the UK? There is a test and trace system and it’s beginning to be quite effective... 75% of contacts contacted so just 5% short of the target of 80%.

Whilst the UKs early responses were poor I don’t think it does anyone any good to constantly down play what we now have and how it’s improving all the time.