Who is looking at increased wfh long term?

[jorgeous]

Hello all,

The plan at both mine & DHs company was to go in on a rota basis from September. This is still going to happen but far less frequently than we anticipated eg 4 days a month in the office. Plus it's completely voluntary. Companies are making noises about this becoming the norm, reducing HQ space & competitors are acting similar & some have made the switch.
There are lots of benefits to wfh although I do like the social aspect of the office. However because we are not allowed meetings of more than 2 people, gyms, canteens, coffee stations etc are all closed very few are coming back so there is little social aspect.
If this is the norm we really need to rethink our home environment & have a proper office for both of us.
I feel a little sad tbh, anyone else in the same boat?

ologne4711

As a line manager, I’d also side eye any of my team who were a little too keen to WFH full time permanently“

Even if excellent results spoke for themselves? Must be awful for your staff, knowing their manager harbours such a negative opinion of them.

@ThighthighOfthigh well the artisan local food still needs to be cooked and the dishes still need to cleared and put into the dishwasher. We also experimented with farmdrop during lockdown (they sell organic locally sourced food online), and made some yummy dishes. DH is a keen cook but we would still eat out when we want to. Eating out isn't just about the food (though I would not want to pay for something worse than our home cooking). Its also about the experience, and its also a fuss free way of meeting friends and family on neutral ground- no need to give the house an entire spring cleaning prior to inviting people over. No need to worry about people's allergies/dietary preferences, most good restaurants are able to deal with that. Also some things are quite difficult to make at home yourself without the economies of scale- indian curries for two people is a lot of work. Ditto for many chinese dishes- usual standard for a good meal is minimum of 3-5 dishes.

a lot of towns outside London do lack the good restaurants, with the exception of big towns like Brighton and also places like St Albans. However, those towns have london style house prices so I am not so sure about the financial viability of moving further out. I look at what i can get in St Albans for my money and honestly its not that much more than z3 north london. I would get more if my budget was 600k or more but even then its still a tiny terrace house near the city centre with small rooms. Thats why I would probably stay in z3 north london even if its a flat because the house in the places I actually want to live in outside London isn't much bigger even with a larger budget.

@BrightYellowDaffodil than you. I really think I might stop talking about what I do on here as am a bit fed up (understatement) with getting a kicking every time. Educators really are pariahs on MN.

DH will be working from home permanent now and his boss has agreed that it’s ok for us to move if we want to. He has wfh for many more years than he has worked in an office so as a house we have slipped back into it effortlessly as we were set up and knew what it entailed.

The offices are now open for a few who found it hard to work from home. The rest are adamant they don’t want to go back in and work is going very well. They have landed a new contract and were looking for bigger office space before all this so now will just keep existing office and therefore saving money.

Agree genie out the bottle now and will see more flexible models. It isn’t going to suit everyone in the long term and I think potentially a few people may review their stance after a winter and may want to go in a few days a week after all but time will tell on that one.

@MothAndRabbit I feel your pain. I’m in professional services but it’s amazing how many people think that I’ll know just who to contact in Student Accommodation or that I’ll know what’s going on in a School I don’t cover. Or, according to this thread, that we’d also be responsible for mowing the lawns while Classics lecturers also oversee the payroll...

And that’s before the whole “Oh working at a uni is a cushy number, isn’t it!” as if everything should be a race to the bottom of working conditions and pay...

As for the off-shoring, my last company shifted everything to India. It was a disaster, what with the language barrier, the time zone differences, the way it was set up so staff were only ever reading scripts... They shifted it back again, at huge cost, a few years later I heard.

Outsourcing has long since been seen as a bad thing and there are a lot of companies who market the fact that they DON’T off-shore because they know customers don’t like it and the other problems it brings.

I think the problem is that this is all happening at a hugely accelerated pace, largely due to Covid and the places that serve the office culture are being left stranded with no time to prepare.

My husband works in banking and won't be going back for the foreseeable. It's saving us huge amounts of money atm, although I do worry about my heating bills once it gets colder.

I just don't like the assumption that you must be a terrible manager if you cannot manage people just as well remotely as you can in person

I think it's more that you're a terrible manager if you "side eye" people who want to work from home. Good managers trust their team and treat them as adults.

I think it's more that you're a terrible manager if you "side eye" people who want to work from home. Good managers trust their team and treat them as adults..

Oh yes, absolutely agree!

Our company has let the lease expire on its City head office, while keeping the London suburban hubs as hotdesking spaces. We've been told that we can now work 'agilely' with the majority WFH. It's an interesting shift; there were already smaller companies in our industry doing it but I think we're the biggest to make the transition and it's definitely been fuelled by Covid-19. DH and I were talking earlier today about the need to set up a proper home working space for me as a result of it, now that we know we won't be going back.

Another one here that's now WFH for good. I'm still furloughed at the moment and I don't really know how I feel about it all. I like the social aspect of going into the office and I know I'll need to be firm with my husband that I am working and not home to do all of the housework etc

I've found that my team are doing longer hours and working more, rather than less. I spot emails sent by them after 8pm and before 6am, and we've cracked down quite hard on it - the roles they do are high stress and they need time away from it for their mental health. I think that's going to be trickier to manage than having people shirking because they're not being watched, tbh.

I think it's more that you're a terrible manager if you "side eye" people who want to work from home. Good managers trust their team and treat them as adults.

This, in absolute spades. This situation will (hopefully) sort the managerial wheat from the chaff: who can actually manage their people, understand that flexibility and trust go both ways, and who can only cope if their staff are sitting in front of them.

Any manager who thinks suspiciously of anyone wanting to WFH is not someone I’d want to work for. Thankfully I work for good managers who trust their staff and who earn loyalty in return.

Good managers trust their team and treat them as adults.

this ^ wot @ZoeTurtle said

Equally, relying on people 'picking up' the job from others can be effective, it can also mean that inefficient practises are perpetuated. It's fine if you fit in with any Queen Bees but can also encourage power plays.

Really effective remote working does require effort to capture (maybe harvest) best practise and ensure everyone has equal access resources and information

Also, why is everyone assuming those based overseas will be better and cheaper. Isn't the whole point of Brexit that WE will be better and cheaper?

I manage teams in three countries. You don’t need to micro manage for everyone to do their work. They are well trained and responsible. It’s not where and when you work which matters. I don’t mind if they start at eleven as they have a school play to go and watch as I know they will make up the hours later.

As a pp said I think there's a strict mindset to wfh too. I now screen non work calls and don't fiddle around with even the laundry. I can't wait to get the wall up in my dining room and just be completely 'at work'.

Even though the domestic environment is distracting I think it will be easy to adjust although much much harder if you lack space or have young children.

@LBOCS2

I've found that my team are doing longer hours and working more, rather than less. I spot emails sent by them after 8pm and before 6am, and we've cracked down quite hard on it - the roles they do are high stress and they need time away from it for their mental health. I think that's going to be trickier to manage than having people shirking because they're not being watched, tbh.

Absolutely. My job never really had a defined start-and-finish time anyway but the amount of time colleagues spend answering emails on a Sunday morning or 'popping into' Teams meetings when they're on annual leave is really staggering. I spent 4 days of my only A/L this year working. Today is supposed to be a College-wide leave day and guess what? Everyone's still at their desks. It's not a good state of affairs really and I spend far more time encouraging my colleagues to down tools and take a break rather than chasing them up!

The idea that people shirk when they're not in the office is really pretty much bollocks imo. Work might not necessarily always take place between the standard Mon-Fri 9-5 anymore but many of us are working harder than ever. I really feel for anyone who has a boss that doesn't respect that fact.

I can't see my company outsourcing overseas. Knowledge of the home market is essential. The cost of training someone, and the need to work the same hours as we do would make it very difficult.

They are talking about this on LBC, lots moving to a mix of remote working

There will be for us and I think it's brilliant.

Instead of spending my money on TfL and shit lunches from chain restaurants because that's all that's near my office, I can spend it on other things.
I can support the bakery and coffee shop near my house. I can get meat and veg delivered which is fresher than supermarket stuff, because I'm at home in the day to receive the delivery. I have more time to spend on my hobbies, which will mean more money being spent in the industries that relate to it.

I'm not too worried about my role being outsourced. We work internationally anyway, but there are plenty of good reasons my company mostly prefers to employ people in the UK, that aren't all related to their physical presence in an office. GDPR, for starters. Time zone issues. Knowledge of UK-specific industries. Training from UK institutions.

My company is desperate to get everyone back in even though WFH tech has been great. It's clearly just not a thing within our company and leadership culture.

We're rota-ed to fill the maximum number of desks that SD allows - currently that means in the office 3 days a week. As and when SD is relaxed I think everyone will get the full summons!

Office have paid us to set up a home office (desk, chair, better wifi connection etc). Efficiency has been great as well. The problem is, ours is a client based company. The clients are happy to allow wfh now, but once the pandemic is over, there will be questions about security of their data. Especially with some of the younger people, who share flats etc. On the other hand, they were actively looking for new office space and have stopped for the foreseeable now, so I guess, whenever they can convince the clients about wfh they will do so.
I personally would love it.

Working from home has been going well in my NHS based job, and I can't imagine returning to working full time on site. The main benefit has been not having to fight over limited private spaces for appointments and meetings, everything is running more smoothly. We have a rota for going in, and I think I'll probably go in twice a week.

Dp has shut his office and given notice as every member of the team would prefer to work from home, so they are letting them.

The reason I would side eye any of my team who were too keen to WFH full time forever has nothing to do with productivity. It’s quite easy to see from people’s output whether they are working or not. I don’t care whether they decide to work 9-5, 10-6, 2am-6am. Our roles are quite technical so it’s not about standard hours and set tasks, it’s projects focused and we all trust each other to get stuff done. My own line manager is also output focused and doesn’t care what hours I’m working, it’s about my output. I also manage that way. As long as the objectives are met I genuinely don’t care so all of those who are desperate for this situation to remain so they can WFH full time forever and got defensive and immediately assumed it was about trust can wind their necks back in!

I would wonder why they seem to not to want to see their colleagues, team mates face to face? I’d wonder why they are working for my company. Do they actually care about it? If they don’t want to ever see any of us in real life, why do they work for us? Is it only about the money? Are they committed to our company? Are they aligned to our values etc? I’m allowed to question their motivations.

It’s not about presenteeism where a manager would expect you to always be in. I’m not always in, I work flexibly, I’ve been WFH 1 day a week for years, I also have 2 days where I start late and leave early and only work 35 hrs a week So I’m hardly Sigourney Weaver from Working Girl! It’s the opposite issue - neverpresenteeism. There have to be negative consequences if your team never meet face to face especially in orgs like ours where you have multidisciplined teams on technical projects. I also have grads coming through every year. It’s not a great way for them to start work. They need people around them.

I have no issue with mixed working or WFH for the foreseeable under the current circumstances (we have excellent tech to allow this) but once things settle down, safety measures are put in place and case numbers are manageable, I will side eye people who still insist on WFH full time or who ask for their contracts to be changed etc. I can still manage them and still see their output but I’d wonder if they really want to work for our company. That’s where the side eye would come in, it’s not about trust.

This is a discussion forum, I’m allowed to think differently.