To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

We have backyard chickens so only really buy eggs in winter when they moult and aren’t laying but then I try to get free range.

We grow a lot of our own veggies (apart from the worst heat in summer when it’s just too damn hot) and use recycled greywater for our flower gardens (but not for anything leafy that we eat)

@SistineScreamer no one is forcing anyone to give up meat.

It’s kind of ironic though that this thread is about not forcing abuse on animals so that people can eat meat several times a day, all about the concern for the ‘poor people’ though.

It’s clear that it doesn’t bother some people and they won’t change so no one is being forced by a thread on mumsnet to do anything.

@SistineScreamer

But how are you being forced? You can still go and buy cheap meat, right? Nothing is physically preventing you from buying whatever you like, is it? You aren’t being forced to give something up or make different choices.

People are allowed to disagree with your choices and tell you why they think they’re bad. But how does that force you to do anything?

There are always posters on these threads who love to throw around dramatic accusations about vegans or vegetarians ‘forcing’ their lifestyle on others, but the truth is you haven’t been forced to do anything, have you? You’ve just been confronted with a different opinion to your own.

Well this may sound wanky but I only buy ethically sourced meat and know where it comes from

It doesn't sound wanky. If I could afford to, I would as well.
I've watched videos of factory farming. It's not pleasant but it didn't shock me, it was what I expected. I don't think we can justify it really but I still buy that meat...as do vast majority of people. I assume any meat I buy was factory farmed unless it's labelled organic or free range. Just as I expect any clothes I buy to be made in dubious conditions unless otherwise stated.

Yes. I do know

I have 3 kids was a single parent on min wage. We ate cheap meat when we ate meat, used battery eggs. Certainly didn’t eat meat every day but when we did it was cheap meat because that’s all I could afford.

No longer so skint and eat From the butcher meat now.

But if I was skint tomorrow I’d go back to cheap meat.

[quote Ellamiss]@SistineScreamer no one is forcing anyone to give up meat.

It’s kind of ironic though that this thread is about not forcing abuse on animals so that people can eat meat several times a day, all about the concern for the ‘poor people’ though.

It’s clear that it doesn’t bother some people and they won’t change so no one is being forced by a thread on mumsnet to do anything.[/quote]
Dear lord, I don't know how many times I've said this.

I KNOW no one is forcing me to do anything. I also KNOW a thread can't force people to do anything. It's the mentality that because others here think they're doing good that = okay to force veggie on others. It's always - it's cheaper, better etc We know. There will be people that read this who then research and turn veggie. Or cut down on meat. Great.

But there will be people who do the same reading and don't want to change their food choices or even alter their diets completely. That choice should be their's.

People should feel guilty for eating meat that has had a horrible life
But they don't they try not to think about it
If you tell a child that the sausages they are eating are made out of a pig! And explain to them what happens they don't want to eat it
You can go on eating shit cheap processed meat but it's not good for your health or the animals so take responsibility
We force our kids to eat meat they don't get a say in it! But it's more children turning vegan/veg nowadays that adults so hopefully it will change in the near future!
I hope

Shame the animals don’t get a choice though @SistineScreamer

@40andginger

People should feel guilty for eating meat that has had a horrible life But they don't they try not to think about it If you tell a child that the sausages they are eating are made out of a pig! And explain to them what happens they don't want to eat it You can go on eating shit cheap processed meat but it's not good for your health or the animals so take responsibility We force our kids to eat meat they don't get a say in it! But it's more children turning vegan/veg nowadays that adults so hopefully it will change in the near future! I hope

I hope so too, I really do.

It's people either telling others to alter their diets or thinking it's fine to force it on others outright that baffles me.

It’s hard when it’s something that you view as a moral issue though. There is always a massive uproar on here is someone admits to smacking their child, because many people believe it’s morally wrong to smack children. Or when people leave their dogs alone for ‘too’ long during the day. It’s quite upsetting if you genuinely think that something is wrong/cruel, but you see others doing or defending it without a second thought.

I would force it on others to the extent that if I got married or threw a party there would only be vegetarian food there, because I don’t want to give my money to an industry that I disagree with. I don’t think anyone I know would mind enough to not come, and if they did then they’re probably not someone I would miss very much anyway.

Other than that, I don’t try and force anything on anyone.

I don’t feel in the least bit guilty

Meat 2 or 3 times a week was a treat and it was sure to get clean plates.

I know how chickens are reared in the houses. I’ve been there. Walked them to pick up the dead ones.

I’ve seen how cows are reared close up.

Not so much experience of pigs and I don’t like lamb so don’t eat it.

I don’t feel in the least guilty.

The thing is OP.

If you really abuse an animal, you damage your own stock. You make it more likely to die or for parts of the animal to not be saleable. Farmers do not want unhealthy animals! They want big healthy ones that sell well.

The really really shit stuff isnt making into the steak mince at sainsburys. Its the frozen crap used by catering companies making school dinners or cafeteria food in workplaces, hospital meals & the like. Avoid those.

[quote TheHappyHerbivore]@SistineScreamer

But how are you being forced? You can still go and buy cheap meat, right? Nothing is physically preventing you from buying whatever you like, is it? You aren’t being forced to give something up or make different choices.

People are allowed to disagree with your choices and tell you why they think they’re bad. But how does that force you to do anything?

There are always posters on these threads who love to throw around dramatic accusations about vegans or vegetarians ‘forcing’ their lifestyle on others, but the truth is you haven’t been forced to do anything, have you? You’ve just been confronted with a different opinion to your own.[/quote]
I'm not sure if there's an undercurrent of stupid, ignorant, obnoxious or a mix of all 3 here. This thread isn't force me to do shit. I know this, I also know people have different opinions.

The irony in you saying that is the mentality this thread presents is it's fine to force the lifestyle on other's because you're doing good? The responses are "People should just eat veggie." People aren't stupid. They know veggie and vegan are out there, they have modern research methods at their disposal and some don't turn because they don't want to. Not wanting to alter your diet or go full veggie should be fine - it's not here though.

Yep, it's a veggie thread. Cool. But ffs I don't think it's dramatics when the answer to everything is - just get them to eat veggie. Ah yes, it would be nice if everyone was vegan like me and adhered to my principles.

Aye, I don't spend my days daydreaming about how wouldn't it be nice if veggie and vegans ate meat? My response to threads about them or even here has never been - lets just give them a burger, then they’ll see the light. They should ALL eat meat so I don't have to listen to them whinge. The general responses in this thread differ to that.

Mmm, I think there is a difference though between the examples you've quoted above, and downright cruelty.

[quote TheHappyHerbivore]@SistineScreamer

In what way is this thread forcing you to do anything?[/quote]
Yes, quite! Hyperbole

I buy ethically raised meat too. Yes it is more expensive but not as much as you'd think and it is easy enough to pad the meals out a bit so it goes further. Ie. Add a bit more veg to Bolognese, fajitas plus there's quite often offers on the cheaper cuts if you have a slow cooker and they are often tastier.

I'm not sure if there's an undercurrent of stupid, ignorant, obnoxious or a mix of all 3 here. This thread isn't force me to do shit

The only one coming across as stupid, ignorant or obnoxious is you tbh.

@SistineScreamer

So just to be clear, when you said the following things:

They shouldn't be forced or guilted to change their diet

Don't ram it down someone's throat, literally in this sense

I don't believe my life choices are superior to begin with, but I won't force them on other people.

What I'm uncomfortable with is that so many of you think it's fine to force other to be vegan/veggie.

It also won't make it anymore wrong to force someone on a low income over to veggie because they can't afford organic meat.

It doesn't matter how good your cause is, if you're going to force people into that says it all really.

My issue is the attitude of people on here who think it's acceptable to force their lifestyle onto other people because - you don't agree with it?

My issue is - people thinking it's fine to force their lifestyles on others because ....the animals?

It's people either telling others to alter their diets or thinking it's fine to force it on others outright that baffles me.

What you ACTUALLY meant was:

I KNOW no one is forcing me to do anything. I also KNOW a thread can't force people to do anything.

Do I have that right?

Wow @SistineScreamer again, can I suggest that you examine just why it is you’re getting so het up about all this? Surely if you’re happy with your choices, you’d be able to defend them calmly instead of hurling insults?

@MsQueenInTheNorth

It's people either telling others to alter their diets or thinking it's fine to force it on others outright that baffles me.

It’s hard when it’s something that you view as a moral issue though. There is always a massive uproar on here is someone admits to smacking their child, because many people believe it’s morally wrong to smack children. Or when people leave their dogs alone for ‘too’ long during the day. It’s quite upsetting if you genuinely think that something is wrong/cruel, but you see others doing or defending it without a second thought.

I would force it on others to the extent that if I got married or threw a party there would only be vegetarian food there, because I don’t want to give my money to an industry that I disagree with. I don’t think anyone I know would mind enough to not come, and if they did then they’re probably not someone I would miss very much anyway.

Other than that, I don’t try and force anything on anyone.

I agree with you in the sense of - your house, your rules, your home. Do what you feel comfortable. My issue was people on here who thought it was grand to literally force it on the entire population.

I won't tell you what to eat. I won't tell you you just need a bacon sandwich to 'cure' you. That is your choice. I realise it must be hard for people who see animals as children. On the opposite end of that - those who don't shouldn't be demonised.

There are people here who don't feel guilty, there are people who have done their research and know where their meat comes from and there are people who won't touch meat or who think those that eat it are monsters. It's a mixed bag. A real mixed bag because there's also going to be different sub categories here too.

I digress - my point is, I'm not going to tell you how to live regardless of how personal it is to me.

There's no cruelty free way to eat animals
There is no cruelty free way to eat, full stop.

Crops require pesticides, which kill insects. Weeds are also killed, which reduces the food available to surviving insects. The lack of weeds and insects is bad for many bird species.

Crops also require the control (that is, culling) of all sorts of animals: wood pigeons (over 1000 were shot on a friend's arable farm last year), rabbits, deer. If you had ever seen the damage done by a flock of wood pigeons, you would understand why.

Once that crop is waiting in a barn to be transported off the farm, rats and mice will be controlled.

For us to live, other animals have to die. Other animals are never even born, because the amount of space we take up destroys their habitats.

Plus I mistrust research that suggests we convert pasture to arable, as so much of the UK's pasture is just not suitable for crops (and this is true of most of the world, too).

I dislike factory farming. I detest animal cruelty. But if an animal has had a decent life and a clean, quick death I have no problem with eating it.

I really can’t afford to care about how the animals I eat have been treated. I can’t buy organic and I won’t stop eating meat.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-432868/Animal-ban-cruelty-farmer.htmlYes
www.kentonline.co.uk/maidstone/news/welfare-probe-after-two-cows-die-218744/

I recognise a farm described on here which we have reported for years.

@MsWonderful

Wow *@SistineScreamer* again, can I suggest that you examine just why it is you’re getting so het up about all this? Surely if you’re happy with your choices, you’d be able to defend them calmly instead of hurling insults?

I'm not getting worked up about my choices. 😂 I'm getting worked up about having to repeat that I know a thread, Mumsnet and all of the above can't force me into doing anything. I know this. I've stated it repeatedly, my problem is the mentality that is fine to force the lifestyle on the entire population. I'm not going to force you to eat meat? Why shouldn't others be given the same courtesy.

[quote TheHappyHerbivore]@SistineScreamer

So just to be clear, when you said the following things:

They shouldn't be forced or guilted to change their diet

Don't ram it down someone's throat, literally in this sense

I don't believe my life choices are superior to begin with, but I won't force them on other people.

What I'm uncomfortable with is that so many of you think it's fine to force other to be vegan/veggie.

It also won't make it anymore wrong to force someone on a low income over to veggie because they can't afford organic meat.

It doesn't matter how good your cause is, if you're going to force people into that says it all really.

My issue is the attitude of people on here who think it's acceptable to force their lifestyle onto other people because - you don't agree with it?

My issue is - people thinking it's fine to force their lifestyles on others because ....the animals?

It's people either telling others to alter their diets or thinking it's fine to force it on others outright that baffles me.

What you ACTUALLY meant was:

I KNOW no one is forcing me to do anything. I also KNOW a thread can't force people to do anything.

Do I have that right?[/quote]
Mmm, aye. I’d say you do.

Though I'm assuming because I went through my statements I'm going to get an essay on how my statements are...somehow guilting veggies into eating meat or how I'm shoving my views down someone else's muzzle.

I'll state for the record - I'm not telling you to pipe down and go shove a burger down your throat. My problem is the mentality that it's fine to force your lifestyle on others if you deem it a good cause or you just don't like it. 🙄