To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

There is a lot of high welfare pork here. There's a lot of high welfare everything, everywhere, thank goodness. But for it to become the norm we ALL need to decide we will pay for it.

That includes persuading supermarkets to be more open to discussion on what they pay and there being accommodatuon for those who cannot afford raised prices - that means those who can do pay more!

Not sure that will ever happen!

Not in the slightest.

How terrifying.

My fault for asking, I suppose.

@DocOfTheBay
No, this wasn’t picked up by an inspection. It was revealed by undercover filming by animal rights activists, who then passed their information on to Red Tractor

@Ylvamoon

If you want cheap, you get cheap with a hefty nasty thrown in for money saving measures. I agree with OP, people should care where their good comes from. You can eat a nutritious, vegetarian diet on a budget - that will even cover some organic/ fair trade pulses.

Yes, and what about those that don't want to eat vegetarian?They shouldn't be forced or guilted to change their diet because they can't afford organic or because they tend to pick up a random steak burger from Tesco.

What is it with veggie threads that there's normally one or a few even that come out with - "Yes, terrible cruelty. Everyone should be veggie as it's cheap, better for the the earth etc blah blah some other bullshit to justify our cause." 🤦🏼‍♀️

It is terrible cruelty though? Watch the video. Why should people stuffing their faces with cheap meat come before inflicting that on animals.

If you want to find objection with some of the posts on here, I am surprised it’s the vegetarian ones you have taken issue with.

Early humans were hunters. We evolved to live off meat. It's not nice but 'natural'.

I think you're missing the point. The Red Tractor Assurance is a level of welfare/food production that far exceeds most other countries that import here. By suspending membership of farms that fall below standard, it means that there produce is now no longer farm assured.

If you buy cheap meat it is produced cheaply. If you pay more you get more, meat production is consumer led not farmer profit led, but it's far nicer and easier to blame someone else for living standards of your cheap chicken and sausage. Take some responsibility and at least start by buying British food.

What is it with veggie threads that there's normally one or a few even that come out with - "Yes, terrible cruelty. Everyone should be veggie as it's cheap, better for the the earth etc blah blah some other bullshit to justify our cause."

Um... because it’s true?

That’s like saying “Why on every thread about smoking is there someone saying ‘Ohh smoking. Very bad for you and others around you, expensive, makes you smell unpleasant.’”
Just because you don’t like hearing something doesn’t mean it’s not true

@VampireBill

I think you're missing the point. The Red Tractor Assurance is a level of welfare/food production that far exceeds most other countries that import here. By suspending membership of farms that fall below standard, it means that there produce is now no longer farm assured.

If you buy cheap meat it is produced cheaply. If you pay more you get more, meat production is consumer led not farmer profit led, but it's far nicer and easier to blame someone else for living standards of your cheap chicken and sausage. Take some responsibility and at least start by buying British food.

That farm was red tractor assured though and was inspected by them and passed their welfare standards. It was animal activists who put hidden cameras in, the red tractor scheme does not mean high welfare.

They have only been ditched because the footage was made public. If we (the public) don’t start demanding higher welfare for these wretched animals then we are going to see more of the hideous American style factory farm models.

We're currently in the midst of a crisis which the experts have said is linked to disregard for nature, the environment and mass farming.

And that there will be more virus outbreaks if there is no change.

If you don't care about where your food is coming from, then you're part of the problem.

@MsQueenInTheNorth

What is it with veggie threads that there's normally one or a few even that come out with - "Yes, terrible cruelty. Everyone should be veggie as it's cheap, better for the the earth etc blah blah some other bullshit to justify our cause."

Um... because it’s true?

That’s like saying “Why on every thread about smoking is there someone saying ‘Ohh smoking. Very bad for you and others around you, expensive, makes you smell unpleasant.’”
Just because you don’t like hearing something doesn’t mean it’s not true

Didn't say it wasn't true, Queen. My issue is, you have a cause, great. Don't ram it down someone's throat, literally in this sense. Doesn't matter how well you think you're doing - I'm not going to shove a steak down a veggie and vegan's throat. I don't believe my life choices are superior to begin with, but I won't force them on other people.

@GladAllOver

Early humans were hunters. We evolved to live off meat. It's not nice but 'natural'.

There is nothing natural about keeping animals in tiny cages, beating them and never allowing them to feel grass underfoot. Is it ‘natural’ to throw a bucket at a young bull calf so hard that he falls to the ground? To leave one in so much pain that he can’t put his foot to the ground?

Their lives are short and miserable enough, at least look after them while they are alive.

And once again, this is not a one off or unusual.

American farm models Where pigs are fed a chemical that's banned almost everywhere else in the world. Their legs frequently cannot support them so they are penned so tightly they cannot fall over.
That's what the US wants us to take, as part of a trade deal.

@SistineScreamer
Starting a thread is hardly ramming anything down anyone’s throat. If you feel so uncomfortable as the result of reading this thread maybe you should do a bit of self-reflection about why that might be?

Yes, and what about those that don't want to eat vegetarian?hmmThey shouldn't be forced or guilted to change their diet because they can't afford organic or because they tend to pick up a random steak burger from Tesco.

I think you probably should have to face up to your choices. If you want to eat cheap meat, you should be forced to acknowledge the other costs and cruelty of that. It’s still your decision to make, but other people shouldn’t have to dance around the truth so that you don’t have to acknowledge the consequences of your choice.

You don’t even have to go veggie. You could return to the model of meat eating that people followed 60 years ago, when meat was good quality but expensive, and purchased for occasional consumption. The average adult in the U.K. these days eats far more meat than is healthy or sustainable, because it is now so cheap. It’s destroying the environment, unhealthy, and a major cause of animal cruelty.

If you’re going to say ‘I don’t care about animals being tortured and I don’t care about the impact on the environment and I don’t care about the inevitable climate refugees I am creating, all that matters to me is that the meat is cheap and tasty’ then fine, that’s you’re right. But other people have a right to point out that this is selfish and cruel. Nobody owes it to you to lie to make you feel better about yourself.

[quote MsWonderful]@SistineScreamer
Starting a thread is hardly ramming anything down anyone’s throat. If you feel so uncomfortable as the result of reading this thread maybe you should do a bit of self-reflection about why that might be?[/quote]
I don't feel uncomfortable with thread? What I'm uncomfortable with is that so many of you think it's fine to force other to be vegan/veggie. Cheaper, better? That's great. Won't change the fact that a person who doesn't want to do it won't. It also won't make it anymore wrong to force someone on a low income over to veggie because they can't afford organic meat.

It doesn't matter how good your cause is, if you're going to force people into that says it all really.

@SistineScreamer

In what way is this thread forcing you to do anything?

There is nothing natural about keeping animals in tiny cages, beating them and never allowing them to feel grass underfoot.
I agree!

The problem is that the human race has multiplied far beyond the point where we can live in harmony with the natural world or the planet's resources. We are destroying them.

It is bizarre that a law to enforce constant c.c.t.v. recording in abbatoirs was fairly recently passed in England, not Scotland, Ireland or Wales.

Equally bizarre that no such law protects humans incarcerated where power abusers can treat them cruelly. In particular, care homes and hospitals where frail, disabled, or undefended older people are vulnerable, particularly at night.
Others have remarked, elsethread, on the cruelty, indifference and hatred evident towards elder and disabled people.
On this thread, some people have been honest about not caring in the slightest about animal cruelty. Regardless of whether one shares their opinions, their honesty is welcome. And intriguing.
Do these same people care/not care about other cruelty?
Obviously, the general public has a selective 'caring', shown by the fact it's easy to raise funds for cute disabled kiddies or cute kittens, or breast cancer, but next to impossible to get anyone to fund adult or old disabled humans, or bowel cancer, which doesn't involve any association with being cute or photogenic.

@TheHappyHerbivore

Yes, and what about those that don't want to eat vegetarian?hmmThey shouldn't be forced or guilted to change their diet because they can't afford organic or because they tend to pick up a random steak burger from Tesco.

I think you probably should have to face up to your choices. If you want to eat cheap meat, you should be forced to acknowledge the other costs and cruelty of that. It’s still your decision to make, but other people shouldn’t have to dance around the truth so that you don’t have to acknowledge the consequences of your choice.

You don’t even have to go veggie. You could return to the model of meat eating that people followed 60 years ago, when meat was good quality but expensive, and purchased for occasional consumption. The average adult in the U.K. these days eats far more meat than is healthy or sustainable, because it is now so cheap. It’s destroying the environment, unhealthy, and a major cause of animal cruelty.

If you’re going to say ‘I don’t care about animals being tortured and I don’t care about the impact on the environment and I don’t care about the inevitable climate refugees I am creating, all that matters to me is that the meat is cheap and tasty’ then fine, that’s you’re right. But other people have a right to point out that this is selfish and cruel. Nobody owes it to you to lie to make you feel better about yourself.

For the 100th time - my issue isn't with the thread or pointing cruelty out. Please bang on until you give yourselves a migraine. I’ve never stated "Don't start this thread, I don't want to hear it."

My issue is the attitude of people on here who think it's acceptable to force their lifestyle onto other people because - you don't agree with it? That's what it comes down to. Mention cruelty and how good it is for the environment - the main point is you don't want others eating meat and would be more than happy to force that on other people if you could or take the choice away from people on a lower income?

Educate people, give them the choice. But ffs if they have all they need to know and still want to eat meat leave it. 🤷🏼‍♀️

@20mum

Surely the reason there aren’t cameras in care homes and prisons is because putting people (I’m referring in this instance to prisoners and residents of care homes as well as staff) under constant surveillance is a huge breach of their human rights and a massive intrusion into their privacy? I couldn’t live knowing I was being perpetually filmed, even if it was ostensibly for my own safety.

@SistineScreamer again - in what way are you being forced to do anything at all?

[quote TheHappyHerbivore]@SistineScreamer

In what way is this thread forcing you to do anything?[/quote]
My issue is - people thinking it's fine to force their lifestyles on others because ....the animals? Fuck me, it's the general consensus here. Meat = bad. We shouldn't eat it. At all. Can't afford high quality meat? You shouldn't be eating it period.

It's people either telling others to alter their diets or thinking it's fine to force it on others outright that baffles me.

@20mum what is your position on the animal cruelty? You know, what this thread is about?

It’s always puzzled me that people who have shown themselves to be compassionate about animals would be assumed to not be capable of caring about humans. There is always one who will hijack for a straw man argument.

Well this may sound wanky but I only buy ethically sourced meat and know where it comes from. (From a company that trades in ethical grass raised meat in Australia)
Yes it’s much more expensive so we just eat meat less overall and more vegetarian options between.