To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

I'm vegan. I don't think any meat production is humane. Most is pretty atrocious actually.

Sadly, I think a lot of people don't care, as all they want is cheap meat.

@hibbledobble

I'm vegan. I don't think any meat production is humane. Most is pretty atrocious actually.

Sadly, I think a lot of people don't care, as all they want is cheap meat.

But some people do care and if they look into it a bit more then they might well start to make different choices, and maybe things will slowly start to change? 🙏

Harvard University disagrees with this statement www.vegansociety.com/news/blog/uk-can-sustain-itself-if-it-converted-all-animal-farmland-forest-harvard-research-shows
Relevant extract below

Excellent point.

Also, as a vegan, it is possible to eat very well, very cheaply. It's much cheaper, and healthier than eating cheap, shit, meat. There is a lot of evidence regarding the health benefits of a whole food plant based diet, and meat, dairy or eggs plays no role in that.

I don't buy Red Tractor meat or any meat from a supermarket. I place an order with this butchers in London: www.turnerandgeorge.co.uk/our-meat.html It's all free range and I place an order for delivery a couple of times a year and stock up my freezer. I know they are expensive but I prefer to eat less meat than buy anything which is not free range.

But some people do care and if they look into it a bit more then they might well start to make different choices, and maybe things will slowly start to change? 🙏

Some, I would love to think more, but I think many enjoy the taste of meat and want it as cheap as possible. This thread is full of people that typify that, and justify eating cheap meat.

This is despite overwhelming evidence that meat production and consumption is:

1. bad for the environment
2. often has poor welfare standards
3. bad for health
4. more expensive than an alternative vegan or vegetarian diet

Yes but some families on a budget want to eat meat. Or need to if their kids are veggie refusers. That doesn’t mean disgusting methods in food production are OK but it does mean that some people might not stop and think, or still choose the cheapest option. I’m just saying don’t demonise those people.

You are talking about vegetarian diets which can still include a degree of animal cruelty if from dubious sources. And nobody is saying people need to eat meat...but people in poverty are allowed that choice too .
They are - but it's still a choice, and what I said equally applies to vegan food.

Fwiw - I have been on a very low income having to feed picky children on a very low budget.

Also - there are choices which vegetarians can make about the welfare of animals producing dairy or eggs that they eat as well. I only buy organic animal products now, and I sincerely hope this means that they are not living shitty horrible lives while producing stuff that I eat. And I spend less buying organic milk, cheese, eggs than I did when I bought non organic and also meat products.

Scrowy what you describe re.using cheap cuts from good sources sounds great and all the TV chefs go on about it, but I was always frustrated to find when trying to follow their "money saving" advice at the supermarket was impossible - even if they had the cuts they weren't cheap as the TV chefs had lead me to believe they would be. What you say makes so much sense.

Or need to if their kids are veggie refusers.
I will preface what I'm about to say by reiterating that I have several picky children including one with ASD, I know how hard it is - but allowing children to refuse all veg and only eat meat/carbs/dairy (which if they need to eat meat they must be) is setting those children up for lifelong health issues. Children will not starve themselves and there are effective ways of hiding the veg in many dishes. I know this through bitter experience. They still don't actually need to eat meat, it's still a choice.

I'm a vegan. I think the huge majority of people should avoid all cheap meat and eat it on rare occasions due to the higher cost good meat commands. Ideally we'd all be vegan and share my exact principles but that's another self indulgent thread...

However. I do recognise there is a privilege in my Veganism. I am educated and can read up and gain knowledge on how to balance my diet nutritionally (for me and my whole vegan family inc children). I personally know of families on the breadline who aren't as educated or time rich as I am and / or have to rely on food banks or incredibly cheap meat (bags of chicken nuggets or packets of ham for £1) which provides protein to their entire family. It's not idea by anyone's standards. But please be aware that eating cheap vegan food is possible. But that eating cheap vegan food comes with some level of privilege- education / supplements of b12 / not relying on food banks / some cooking knowledge.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon I accept that’s your experience but not mine. Please make room for others circumstances.

There's a lot of people who do pay the extra for red tractor or welfare friendly or free range and they should be getting what they are told they are buying. Whether everyone can afford it is not really the point, it's a case of fraudulent labelling of food.

Personally I think this country should ban cruel farming practices, not leave it up to the consumer. We don't let someone abuse their pet dog or hamster and we shouldn't be allowing people to abuse farm animals.

Personally I think this country should ban cruel farming practices, not leave it up to the consumer. We don't let someone abuse their pet dog or hamster and we shouldn't be allowing people to abuse farm animals.
Agreed

Write-ups of studies that don't include a link to the actual study so someone could review the data and methodology for themselves are trying to hide something, and are talking horseshit if they can't even be bothered to give the title of the research. From looking at the conference page listed in the write up, it just lists "research findings" which I'm going to guess mean it hasn't been peer reviewed, especially as everything is pretty much saying the same trite things. A look through reviewgate shows the doctor quoted has done a lot in this area, but no studies on the UK become vegan and self-sufficient are coming up.

I'm aware their is shite in the agricultural industry just like everyone other industry. I'm aware some meat may be factory farmed. I'm aware that some produce may have involved child and enslaved labour. I'm aware cashews give those who make them actually edible burns and that many companies don't give their underpaid workers appropriate gear to protect themselves. I'm aware cotton production has fucked up Central Asia.

Awareness does little without solutions. I'm aware of companies that are working to encourage British nuts and seeds so we're less reliant on 'vegan protein' from elsewhere. I'm aware of groups trying to come up with alternatives to cotton through either recycled or other materials. I'm aware few of the many farms in the UK have the issues described and I accept I will never be entirely ethical within a system that heavily incentivies the opposite, even to vegans.

It couldn't.
'Cause I've not eaten it since 1993.

Absolutely horrendous. No need for it at all. Things like this give me a kick up the backside and once and for all go vegetarian. Poor animals these kind of people have no shame.

I believe this is the actual research that the vegan society article referenced.

animal.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/Eating-Away-at-Climate-Change-with-Negative-Emissions––Harwatt-Hayek.pdf

[https://animal.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/Eating-Away-at-Climate-Change-with-Negative-Emissions––Harwatt-Hayek.pdf animal.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/Eating-Away-at-Climate-Change-with-Negative-Emissions––Harwatt-Hayek.pdf]

Ffs, why is my link not working? Argh. Last try

animal.law.harvard.edu/wp-content/uploads/Eating-Away-at-Climate-Change-with-Negative-Emissions––Harwatt-Hayek.pdf

@ClementineWoolysocks

Isn't it common knowledge that the meat industry is absolutely heinous and puts profit way before animal welfare? Some people don't care, the meat on their plate isn't cute or fluffy so they have a weird disconnect with where it comes from.

This with bells on.

A lot of people don’t give a shit where their meat comes from or how the animal was treated. They see it as their “right” to eat meat, even if they can’t really afford it.

The fact people even think you can kill something humanely is mad! There is no humane way to kill anything - just some people put their appetite about the lives of other things in the world.

Nope, I give up - but anyone interested can copy and paste it in their browser.

*above not about

Awareness does little without solutions
But without awareness no one will know that there’s any problem that needs a solution. Exposing these bad practices is the first step towards asking questions about how things can change, surely?

Animals have no voice, they are silent victims locked out of sight. 2.7 trillion animals are killed every year. I have seen grass fed/organic etc (empty words to make US feel better) gassed alongside the ones raised in barns. No fucking humanity shown to either one. Please feel free to watch a RSPCA/red tractor approved video of a pig slowly being gassed in a cage. Its fucking horrific. The only way to judge if something is humane is if you would have the same done to you. I'm guessing nobody would happily jump in to electrified boiling water before having their throat slit. I'm sick of hearing people try to defend this industry. Shit a dead animal out your arse by all means but don't call it humane.

Oh and anyone fall for the "outdoor bred pork"...it means mum gave birth outside before being moved inside and put into metal cage...."outdoor bred" makes it sound all lovely......complete marketing con!

Totally agree areallthe Over 95% of pigs are caged in the UK.