To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

Red Tractor is a badging thing to make people think what they are buying is ethical....it is not.

eg Waitrose ....they laud their welfare standards but the only duck they sell is Bressingham duck which have awful welfare standards......

jam

@lljkk

I don't think about it & always forget that red tractor means... something. I guess I'm not a compassionate person.

Maybe not...seemingly you’re not on your own

@PickAChew

I think that will be genuinely surprising to many, tbh. Of course the farm was suspended from the red tractor scheme when the abuse was exposed but it must be a shock to some people that the so called high welfare standards held by the red tractor scheme allowed cattle to be reared on concrete, in the first place. (yes I do appreciate that those "high" standards are relative to some pretty atrocious conditions allowed by some other countries)

Yes I agree. I think most people would imagine high welfare standards to be allowed to graze outside and have some freedom to behave naturally.

I've heard countless times that its America and not the UK that is cruel to animals and pumps them full of antibiotics!

I don't eat any animal products for health reasons but during my research for this decision I was horrified to see what kind of stuff went on

It is possible to have outdoor and indoor access and in fact the majority of UK farms are, but the more we increase demand for cheap meat the more we need large scale indoor.

But again I won’t judge that, we need nutritional food security in the UK and it’s very ivory towers of people to expect everyone to be able to afford to eat without reasonably priced meat. Or to think everyone can know a farmer or afford it.

So it’s better we make sure that indoor housed animals have excellent care and welfare too, it doesn’t get them when done well.

The same as vegan/vegetarian. The UK environment doesn’t lend itself to self sufficiency on plant only, we don’t have the right land for anything but a combination of plant and animal. We are just offshoring our GGEs and issues otherwise which is very privileged.

These farms should be exposed and prosecuted and expelled from assurance schemes which allow them to trade. Which this one has been, that’s the point of having the law as it stands.

@areallthenamesusedup

Red Tractor is a badging thing to make people think what they are buying is ethical....it is not.

eg Waitrose ....they laud their welfare standards but the only duck they sell is Bressingham duck which have awful welfare standards......

jam

Yes, I was reading about duck farming and it’s pretty awful. They don’t have any access to water and their bodies are not designed to be supported on their legs for so long. It’s a miserable existence. And if they’re intensively farmed they won’t be able to go outside at all, like intensively farmed chickens

What are you aiming for with this thread? To make those on lower incomes, who cannot afford organic meat and shouldn't be forced into an alternative diet due to this, feel bad about themselves? Yes, factory farmed meat is shit. Don't make people feel bad about their choices.

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to think that (morally) if you can’t afford to buy meat that is at least vaguely ethically sourced than you should eat as little meat as possible.
I appreciate that meat substitutes are more expensive than cheap nuggets, etc, but there are plenty of options for cheap vegetarian meals out there.

You see now you are just sounding snide. Anything other than a 100% vegan diet means people have to make some choices. And whilst it’s good that people try to understand where their food comes from no one can totally guarantee the credibility of the source . It doesn’t mean people don’t care at all , but a variety of factors come into play. One of the biggest being cost and I wouldn’t point the finger at anyone who sadly has to chose cost and blank out some of the undesirable facts.

OP - thanks for posting. Loads of people have been and will be defensive because they don't want to think about it and would prefer to forget and think it's someone else's problem and since they didn't do the cruelty it's fine to eat the products of it and line the abusers pockets.

But - there will be people, lurkers, who this will make them think, awaken an unease about mass produced meat, maybe push them further in their unease that they already have, maybe give them the final push to decide that they will no longer be complicit in this type of horror.

I have been that person - with a lurking unease which I buried and ignored for years, and it was seeing a similar thing which gave me the final push.

I do think it's important that people are aware of what goes on - and anyone who is not naive will realise that these are not 'isolated incidents'. Sure - there are good farms out there but there are sure a hell lots of bad ones as well. And that before the animals get to the slaughterhouse.

i do think it's important that people are aware of what goes on - and anyone who is not naive will realise that these are not 'isolated incidents'. Sure - there are good farms out there but there are sure a hell lots of bad ones as well. And that before the animals get to the slaughterhouse
Yes, some of the slaughterhouse videos on YouTube are harrowing. Again, they’ve been secretly filmed by animal rights activists.
Horrifying that after (some) animals are abused during their lives, then (some) are slaughtered by people who seem to take pleasure in abusing and terrifying them on the kill floor

The same as vegan/vegetarian. The UK environment doesn’t lend itself to self sufficiency on plant only, we don’t have the right land for anything but a combination of plant and animal. We are just offshoring our GGEs and issues otherwise which is very privileged.

Harvard University disagrees with this statement www.vegansociety.com/news/blog/uk-can-sustain-itself-if-it-converted-all-animal-farmland-forest-harvard-research-shows
Relevant extract below

Well, I'm a farmer and I've been banging this drum for a while.

I eat very little pork and poultry day to day because I don't agree with how they are raised on a vast commercial scale. That's not farming it's processing.

I will happily eat pork and poultry I know has had a good life, but that basically means I don't buy pork and chicken from supermarkets (except Morrisons and the Co-Op in some exceptions). I eat plenty of lamb, beef

If people insist on cheap meat then this is the ultimate price society pays. You can't have high welfare and low prices.

For what it's worth I first saw this news on a farming Facebook group and without exception everyone in it was more horrified, disgusted and sickened than anyone here has been. We work with animals day in day out and the overwhelming majority of farmers would never dream of treating animals like this.

Oh that’s interesting BewareTheBeardedDragon! Very interesting indeed...

Yes, some of the slaughterhouse videos on YouTube are harrowing.

Yes - I made the mistake of watching one at work once (on my lunch break) and ended up in floods of tears. Had to retreat to the toilets to compose myself. At the time I really wished I hadn't watched it. Did you know that in the US they have passed "ag-gag" laws which make it a federal (I think) offence to secretly film inside agricultural facilities punishable by significant prison terms? It beggars belief.

Oh flamin' hell, all meat is cruel isn't it. Even your organic hand reared corn fed sausages or whatever - it's still a chunk of dead animal at the end of the day. I'm not vegetarian btw, I eat meat.

I will always remember a tv programme made by Hugh Fearnley-Whittingstall. He joined a skint single mum of two boys for the week to observe how she cooked. She was buying three whole chickens for £10 and feeding the lads with these over the course of the week. They ate lean meat with loads of veg for their tea and took chicken sandwiches to school. She boiled the carcasses for soup. Those boys were very well fed indeed. Yet he still shamed her. He tried his utmost to get her to spend that £10 on one small bird. A bird that would provide one evening meal for the three of them. All in the name of compassion.

Principles are an admirable thing to have but sometimes people simply cannot afford to have them.

Today's meat industry is horrific any way you look at it but people can bury their heads in the sand because they don't have to see it. I believe if people were forced to spend the day in an abattoir or meat farm there would be shock and disgust and an upsurge in campaigning and alternative dietary choices.

OP you are absolutely right to share this.

@Scrowy that is heartening, and so good to hear from someone who actually knows what they're talking about.

I still eat meat at my parents house because they buy from Abel and Cole who apparently have very high welfare standards and their own abattoirs which are properly inspected etc. Do you have any inside info as to whether their welfare etc is up to scratch?

@BrassyLocks

Today's meat industry is horrific any way you look at it but people can bury their heads in the sand because they don't have to see it. I believe if people were forced to spend the day in an abattoir or meat farm there would be shock and disgust and an upsurge in campaigning and alternative dietary choices.

OP you are absolutely right to share this.

There’s that saying isn’t there about if abattoirs has glass walls most people would be vegetarian

Principles are an admirable thing to have but sometimes people simply cannot afford to have them.

Sorry but this is really not true. Eating meat is a choice. It is perfectly possible to make healthy tasty easy vegetarian food on a budget (more so in fact). I get that many many people want to eat meat, but none of them actually need to. And I totally get that lots of kids are very picky and feeding them meat is easier and makes them happy. But it's about priorities and choices made from those priorities - not affordability.

Thanks for the sharing this OP, it is very important to be aware of the limitations of this type of thing.

However most people are already be aware that higher welfare meat doesn't mean the animal is running freely having a wonderful life until it is slaughtered quickly and painlessly. It means slightly better standards that are still horrific for the most part. For example, most people are aware that free range eggs just means x amount of chickens per metre (where x is still a big number) and y hours per day access to a small outside area (where y is a small number). And then we have the ethical disaster that is "barn laid" eggs!

If people aren't aware they are just kidding themselves, surely.

Principles are an admirable thing to have but sometimes people simply cannot afford to have them

Absolutely. Which is why I really hate the major supermarkets because they mostly only offer the 'prime cuts' or mince at extortionate prices even in the cheap ranges.

I make glorious hams, stocks and pies from ham hocks that I pick up from the butchers. They sell them off cheaply for dog bones mainly, usually around £3 each.

I buy huge free range chickens from a local farmers market for about £9. We got 4 meals out of the last one.

I make delicious stews using beef shin, oxtail or ox cheek. Can usually get enough for two huge meals out of about £6 worth of meat.

We bulk stuff out, we buy good quality mince and sausages that don't disintegrate into fatty water and braising meat and use loads of veg. We eat seasonally and are prepared to try whatever the butcher has on special. Leftovers are made into pies, stir fries or topped with mash for dinner the next day.

Some days (shock) we don't eat meat. Nothing wrong with the odd meal of egg chips and beans.

People are forced to buy meat in this way because that's all the supermarkets offer them and not everyone had the time or the knowledge to shop around for the cheap but good quality cuts.

Principles are an admirable thing to have but sometimes people simply cannot afford to have them.

I can’t agree to this. It’s more expensive to eat meat than not eat meat. A person could easily buy one high-welfare bird and eat a few meat free meals per week for the same cost or less.

Eating cheap, low welfare meat simply means the person is prioritising their taste preferences over the wellbeing of an animal. I know that’s a decision many people are comfortable with, but I do wish people would care more about animals.

But Red Tractor is a pretty low standard by anyone's viewing. It really is a marketing ploy.

I think one of the real issues is the meat that goes into the chicken sandwich you pick up for lunch or the spaghetti bol you order at a pub or a cafe, you have no control over that at all.

@BewareTheBeardedDragon You are talking about vegetarian diets which can still include a degree of animal cruelty if from dubious sources. And nobody is saying people need to eat meat...but people in poverty are allowed that choice too .

I think one of the real issues is the meat that goes into the chicken sandwich you pick up for lunch or the spaghetti bol you order at a pub or a cafe, you have no control over that at all

Pre Covid I was often seen checking the back of sandwich packets on a rare day away from the farm. Have a look next time you have a chance. The chicken In sandwiches will most likely be from Thailand and the ham 'of EU origin'. £2 for a bit of flabby Eastern European pork or Thai chicken encased in dubious mayonnaise and dry but somehow soggy sliced bread.

Give me a £2 big meaty free range scotch egg from the butchers over that any day.