To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

How can you possibly be assuming that many people on this thread aren’t doing that?! How can you possibly infer that I am assuming anything. Or is it just because I am a meat eater with the temerity to argue back?

I had a point. It has been rebuffed but not engaged with. You have done it a few times in your last couple of posts - a lot of yeah but, no but. That is the usual response on such threads.

It doesn't make for a good discussion. And it won't find any answers.

One thing I am fairly sure of, my carbon footprint (minus my job) is exceptionally low, no matter which claculator I use. My food miles are ridiculously low and my recycling rate is high, waste also low.

Oh... actually maybe not so low anymore. I now have a dog!

They don’t eat palm oil a vegan favourite ingredient which is making the orangutans extinct.

What in the world do you mean by ‘a vegan favourite ingredient’?!

For one thing, many vegans consider palm oil to not be a vegan product and avoid it as a result.

For another, let’s look at some of the worst offending products when it comes to palm oil:

Wall’s Soft Scoop Dairy ice cream
Cadbury’s Dairy Milk
Malteasers
Maryland Chocolate Chip Cookies
Sainsbury’s Garlic Bread
Head & Shoulders
Dove Original soap
Nutella
Galaxy
Mars
Young’s frozen and chilled fish
Kitkats
Nestle chocolate products
Mr Kipling Cakes
Birds eye chicken
Ginsters pies and pasties
Goodfellas pizza
Bernard Matthews cooked meats
Haribo
Magnums
Aunt Bessie’s potatoes
Chicagotown pizza
Aero
Cadbury’s roses

Yes there is also palm oil in some vegan products like margarine and vegan cheese, but let’s not pretend that palm oil is somehow specifically a vegan issue when there are literally thousands of non-vegan products being happily consumed by non-vegans all the time.

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

And I assume you also eat fruit vegetables and bread? What I was saying is that EVERYONE is complicit in the killing of animals for food. There is no way around it. So I get very tired of efforts to try and make me feel guilty for eating animals which are raised (with decent welfare standards) for slaughter.

We evolved eating meat. We evolved as hunters.

Yy that’s as maybe. Hunting an animal that has lived in freedom all its life is a bit different to the situation that we have nowadays with intensive farming (yes I know not all farming is intensive) and industrial slaughterhouses. Just the sheer number of animals involved per year is mind blowingly horrifying

Yy all/most vegans are aware that animals are accidentally killed during food production. That’s not, to me, an argument for the intensive farming of animals that we have nowadays. The point is to try and do as little harm as possible, not to just give up and not care anymore.

@pollypi If you expect a tray of chicken bits for £1.50 from Tesco to have lived a happy life then you are indeed being naive.
Up to you whether you care - I'm happy for anyone to make their own decisions guilt-free - but don't fool yourself.

Surely this article shows that the system works.

Any farms not meeting the Red Tractor standards lose the right to call themselves Red Tractor farms and their product loses its marketability.

It appears that Red Tractor farms are assessed every 18 months in order to remain Red Tractor farms. Are doctors, solicitors etc assessed that often. How about elderly drivers with failing eyesight and slow reaction times.

And you do realise that when you eat animals they also eat the crops that vegans/vegetarians eat...so you are also complicit in the deaths of the small animals and insects that are killed by crop growing and harvesting.

Yes I understand this. I consider the destruction of our biodiversity to be a much bigger issue than high welfare meat production.

I was agreeing with another poster who highlighted the double standards in just talking about one type of animal death.

Most wildlife killed during the production of food either vegetable or animal is done deliberately not accidentally.

I'm not saying that vegans shouldn't be able to promote their chosen lifestyle I was agreeing that their lifestyle also involves considerable deliberate animal death (potentially more wasteful death as the animal remains aren't consumed)

I also understand that animal rearing involves the production of supplementary vegetable food which includes the death of other species.

I accept that while I eat other animals die because fundamentally I am merely an animal in the food chain.

@Pellewsmate

Surely this article shows that the system works.

Any farms not meeting the Red Tractor standards lose the right to call themselves Red Tractor farms and their product loses its marketability.

It appears that Red Tractor farms are assessed every 18 months in order to remain Red Tractor farms. Are doctors, solicitors etc assessed that often. How about elderly drivers with failing eyesight and slow reaction times.

This abuse was exposed by undercover filming by animal rights activists, not by red tractor inspectors. Not sure what elderly drivers have got to do with it...

@mollyminniemo

Scrowy you are coming across as pretty simple actually. Going to great pains to highlight how no animals don't go in a slaughterhouse alive and come out shredded into bits- open wounds, warts and all (I've been on a pig farm- you literally are getting everything- how delicious) wrapped in plastic. We all know that doesn't happen- the point she was making is that animals are lead against their will into a torture chamber, murdered and then come out dead to be used for meat.

You are quite oblivious and really have never paused to think about the meat you're eating have you? That it was a result of fear, misery, torture, anguish, pain, death. You are sick enough to actually question if any 1 animal would ever agree to this and willingly go through this nightmare ordeal resulting in their murder, just so you can stuff their flesh down your gob, have it sit in your gut only to come out your backside a few days later....
Sounds great! Where can we all sign up??

Given you've clearly missed that I am a BEEF and SHEEP FARMER and my entire life is acutely focused on producing the meat I and everyone else is eating I'm not sure why it's me that's being accused of being simple....

I'm also as sure as I can be that none of the 1870ish animals on my farm currently are being abused or tortured.

An astonishing number of people have no idea about the standards of British farming - they assume that the environmental impact of domestic livestock production is the same as Brazil, Thailand etc, thereby revealing their ignorance.
They don't understand the many benefits of having livestock in a food production system, and what it can do for soil health, and they don't believe that many meat eaters DO actually take care over their food origins and use their shopping power accordingly.
If these factors are all taken into account, then perhaps threads like these would actually go somewhere, but instead they always end up with the comments like 'you're an immoral baby lamb killer who likes to shit dead animals out of your guts' which are frankly risible.
This is why orgs like XR are so fucking annoying and ineffective.
You're not going to change enough peoples minds with uninformed emotional abusive rants. Try educating yourself and engaging on the issues which are relevant to the masses, and we may together find a way to shift the general population to more sustainable ways of meat consumption. Because I completely agree, we need to be rearing and eating less meat, of a higher quality, for the planet.

Accidentally killed?????

That's ignoring the point that was being made. Just the kind of obfuscation, vapid rebuttal I was referring to.

Deliberately, systematically killed, deprived of habitat. From pigeons, all sorts of beetle and worm, rabbits etc. From pesticide to stock fencing. And that's before you get out of the UK and start looking at what happened to make fine beans a cash crop on the African continent, etc.

Ach! What's the point?

TheHappyHerbivore You're absolutely right re palm oil. I boycott all products containing it and your list is a start but there are a hell of a lot more.

I don't know how more ironic it could get if vegans eat palm oil products, considering it's responsible for the devastation of massive areas of orangutan habitat.

Ach! What's the point? Yes I know. What's galling to me is that us farmers are posting our real experience and being scoffed at. It's actually quite painful and I don't know why I bother. It's not that I'm thin skinned just weary. And as for an informed poster like Scrowy being described as 'simple', words fail me.

accidentally killed
Tell that to the farmer who is wiping out a warren that is eating his barley down to the ground. To the bloke with cammo netting, an over-and-under and a spaniel, setting up to blitz the pigeons coming down to nail the newly-sprouted pea plants. Or the bloke on our local market who flogs the venison he shoots, most of it at the request of local farmers, some of it to protect woodland.

There is nothing in the organic farming rulez'n'regz that says you can't kill the various birds and mammals that would like to eat your crop, so that's not an out.

So, if all of that is necessary to allow us to eat, I find it impossible to have a problem with raising livestock in high-welfare systems, slaughtering it cleanly and eating it.

@Ihaventgottimeforthis

I mean for example, neonicotinoids and glyphosate are used largely by the arable & horticultural sectors, as are fungicides. They have a huge environmental impact. As do GM crops. If we're to feed the world on a meat free diet, we will see a LOT more of that, and more damage to our soil biome.

Are these used exclusively on crops that humans consume and not at all on crops that animals consume? I get that it is complicated in that there are areas where you can't grow crops but you can effectively graze and raise animals for meat, but I would be very surprised if it were the case that the majority of meat is raised on such land with no need for additional feed which was grown on arable land. It is a simple fact that where animals raised for meat are eating food grown specifically to feed them, it takes far more land to produce the feed for them per calorie they provide once they are meat, than it takes per calorie of plants raised and directly eaten by humans. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Personally I don't disagree with true high welfare and compassionate slaughtered meat, but I don't think it's possible for people to eat this at the level of meat consumption that we have become accustomed to in the west.

And to another poster - there is a huge difference between animals bred and raised by humans for consumption and those living their natural wild lives who are culled for the sake of humans having crops to eat. This thread is about the animals people consume being raised in pain, fear, abuse and horror. There is a world of difference between that and a deer who has lived wild, doing whatever they like until the point where a skilled huntsman or woman kills them with a single shot.

derxa, you and Scrowy deserve a bloody medal. I'm not a farmer, but I have friends who farm, I walk my dogs on farms, I beat on a shoot on a farm, so I reckon I have a decent if not detailed knowledge base, and the amount of bollocks that gets peddled on MN is stunning.

There was a thread like this a while ago where poster claimed to live rurally and to know that farmers don't spread muck on fields any more. I was as I see piles of it awaiting spreading round here, and the reek of it is unmistakable.

No farmer is going to waste a wonderful pile of free fertiliser....

And to another poster - there is a huge difference between animals bred and raised by humans for consumption and those living their natural wild lives who are culled for the sake of humans having crops to eat. This thread is about the animals people consume being raised in pain, fear, abuse and horror.
Yeah, I'm that poster. I have said on this thread that I dislike animal cruelty, and I have specified that since we are culling animals so we can eat, I have no problem with animals being raised for slaughter in high-welfare systems.

There is a world of difference between that and a deer who has lived wild, doing whatever they like until the point where a skilled huntsman or woman kills them with a single shot.
There is not IMHO a big difference between an animal in an extensive system who is kept in good health, is well fed, and so on, and a deer. Life for a wild animal is not entirely hunky-dory. Deer are often killed and injured on the roads - it's a lucky injured deer which is tracked and shot. They can sometimes carry a significant parasite burden (which would be treated in a sheep or cow). And sadly, even the best marksman (or woman) won't always manage the single shot. Rabbits are predated on by foxes, feral cats, anything that thinks it's in with a chance... Nature is pretty bloody brutal.

Deliberately, systematically killed, deprived of habitat. From pigeons, all sorts of beetle and worm, rabbits etc. From pesticide to stock fencing. And that's before you get out of the UK and start looking at what happened to make fine beans a cash crop on the African continent, etc.

What I can’t wrap my head around is why some of you are acting like the fact that you eat meat absolves you from responsibility for these things also?

You’re just as responsible as any vegan and vegetarian for these specific ills, but then on top of that you also have the astronomical environmental damage of meat consumption (and it DOES NOT MATTER if the meat you eat is local, because as evidenced by multiple links already posted on this thread, eating local product is virtually irrelevant if that produce is meat when it comes to assessing the environmental impact).

Nobody can exist without causing an environmental impact. We should be concerned about harmful arable farming practices. But why should vegans and vegetarians be more concerned about those things than omnivores, when you’re just as responsible as us...? It makes no sense!

You can raise awareness all you like about arable farming issues, but if you’re only doing it to deflect attention away from your own harmful meat consumption because you don’t want to face up to that, don’t expect people to take you seriously or accept that you’re acting in good faith.

There was a thread like this a while ago where poster claimed to live rurally and to know that farmers don't spread muck on fields any more. I was shock as I see piles of it awaiting spreading round here, and the reek of it is unmistakable

Ha, I must have missed that one.

Yes it's very frustrating, I don't mind if people want to be vegetarian or even vegan, indeed I am a huge fan of vegetarian cookery myself. But it's exhausting having to constantly stand up for British farming against people who have got all their information from YouTube and Viva and can't critically engage their brains and recognise that not all farming systems have the same environmental impact.

The cognitive dissonance that must go on for people to see cows and sheep in fields eating grass and still believe they are all actually in cages being abused and force fed soy. Go and visit a farm. Go and see for yourself if you don't believe us.

Because otherwise its like only looking on antivaxx websites for 'the truth' about vaccines.

I'm sick of the farmer bashing on mumsnet.

The cognitive dissonance that must go on for people to see cows and sheep in fields eating grass and still believe they are all actually in cages being abused and force fed soy. Go and visit a farm. Go and see for yourself if you don't believe us

Please point to the post that says all farm animals are in factory farms. No one has said that. Why the hyperbole?

Please point to the post that says all farm animals are in factory farms. No one has said that. Why the hyperbole? Because your postings imply that the abuse cited is just the tiniest tip of the iceberg. I live in the West of Scotland and at the centre of beef and sheep farming. My family have been farming here for hundreds of years. We know what's going on.
We know the farming set ups that are less than ideal. And I certainly don't approve of them.

and can't critically engage their brains and recognise that not all farming systems have the same environmental impact.

I’ve posted numerous sources (including non-partisan sources which have nothing to do with the vegan movement) showing that diets which include meat are worse for the environment than diets that don’t.

You can make as many points as you like about which types of animal agriculture are better or worse than others - that’s fine. But all you’re doing is making a case for the least-worst, because even the best meat-inclusive diets are significantly more harmful to the environment than meat-free diets.

I don’t think what you’re doing is pointless. If people will insist on eating meat, better that they buy the stuff that causes the least harm (though sadly we know that very few people really do follow that model in the U.K.). So by all means keep trying to steer meat-eaters away from the very worst kinds of meat in favour of the less harmful kinds.

But don’t try and win a meat vs meat-free argument when it comes to the environment, because the facts simply can’t be made out in your favour.

The environmental impact of meat is still being debated: note the recent discussions about methane. Grass fed meat from extensive systems is nowhere near as bad as beef raised entirely on grain. I find it hard to believe that the grass fed lamb we have in our freezer is all that much worse in GHG terms than the venison it shares it with.

Please point to the post that says all farm animals are in factory farms
Well, I pointed out that most cattle and sheep in the UK are in extensive systems (i.e.mostly fed on grass and over-wintered on silage) and was told I was providing info with no proof. So yeah, I see where Scrowy is coming from.

Why the hyperbole
Well, it's not exactly all on one side, is it? These threads always descend into one side screeching about the 'rape' and 'murder' of cattle and other animals. It gets wearing.

No, what I’ve said is that it’s reasonable to ask if there are any more, or if it’s the tip of the iceberg, due to 3 farms exposed this year. I think/hope I’ve said that the farmers on this thread are clearly not involved in factory farming, from your own descriptions of your farms

I haven’t said rape or murder