To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

It’s not falling on deaf ears at all. It’s very interesting and not something I have enough knowledge to discuss really, speaking for myself.
The fact remains that judging by the voting on this thread a majority of people actually don’t care if the animals they eat are treated cruelly befor slaughter. I find that hard to believe really, but apparently they just don’t give a shit. Of course usual disclaimers about present farmers being excepted applies.
I do hope though that the more information about these abuses is shared, the less people feel able to ignore it.
Of course it’s very heartening that there have been several people on this thread who have been appalled and say they are going to think about where their meat actually comes from in future.
And of course great to see all the vegans and vegetarians on mumsnet 🌱

Most cattle and sheep in the UK are farmed extensively - on pasture. Cattle over-wintered indoors are principally fed on silage, much of which is grown on land that is great for producing grass but not so good for producing crops.

You’re making many claims without sources, but for the sake of argument I’ll assume you’re correct.

This may be true of British grass fed beef etc but we’ve already discussed in this thread that every time someone eats a chicken sandwich from Tesco or a burger in a pub etc they have no idea where the meat is coming from, and a huge amount of it is from places like Thailand and the US where the animals are absolutely not grazing on pasture. I know that few self-respecting mumsnetters would EVER confess to eating meat that didn’t come from a local butcher who can tell them the very name of the cow before it died, but it’s obviously not actually the case that people are exclusively eating high-welfare, organic, British, grass-fed animals.

Much of the supplementary food they eat is produced from the wastes of human food production - for example, soya residues left after the oil has been extracted.

This is simply not true. 70% of soya is fed directly to livestock. Only 6% is ever used for human consumption. The remainder is used for oil. www.onegreenplanet.org/environment/why-tofu-consumption-is-not-responsible-for-soy-related-deforestation/

Some of it (lucerne, stubble turnips) is grown on arable soils to give them a break from cereals - lucerne is a nitrogen fixer, for example. Cows and sheep have this amazing capacity to turn stuff we can't eat (grass, maize stalks etc) into high-quality protein. And yes, some crops are grown for them on arable land (this is very true of chickens, though I suspect - I don't actually know - that a lot of what they are fed isn't fit for human consumption). But in terms of beef and cattle in the UK, grass and food wastes are the major part of their diet.

Again, no sources, and again this defence only holds up if you’re literally only ever consuming organic, grass-fed, british animals. Maybe that’s true of you personally and you don’t ever have a packaged meat sandwich from a supermarket, but if so you’re in a tiny minority. Most people in this country don’t know where their meat comes from, or the environmental havoc wreaked in its production. The enormous market for packaged sandwiches and meat-based convenience foods is testament to that.

The uncomfortable truth is that there is simply no metric by which you can judge the environmental impact of different diets in which meat consumption comes out on or near the top:

ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food

ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food#the-carbon-footprint-of-eu-diets-where-do-emissions-come-from

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/science-environment-46459714

www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-49238749

Actually your vote wasn't about whether people cared, but about whether people knew - two very different things.

Everyone who thinks for a moment is aware that systems fail and that some bad farms will get through (just like the odd uncaring carehome worker, for example). So I thought YABU for underestimating the knowledge and intelligence of the the population at large.

But hats off for admitting the limits of your knowledge. I genuinely appreciate that you are willing to do that.

Tbh I didn’t think initially about whether I’d put the voting on or not. I haven’t started a thread since it was enabled so perhaps it’s not clear what the question was. I had forgotten tbh!
As I have stated, there have been 3 large farms exposed this year in the U.K. for abusive treatment of their animals. They weren’t exposed by red Tractor inspection, but by undercover animal rights activists. So I think it would be a bit short sighted to not at least ask the question of whether there are likely to be more. Animal welfare does matter.
Thank you so much for your appreciation, I truly appreciate your appreciation and little head pat

So perhaps I should have asked whether U.K. consumers of beef pork or goat’s milk from supermarkets were aware that the animals that provided their bodies might have been regularly starved, kicked, punched and forced to resort to cannibalism? And that this happened on red tractor approved farms and was exposed by animal rights activists, not red tractor inspectors?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-leicestershire-53888057

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/goats-milk-st-helens-farm-yoghurt-hit-kick-animal-cruelty-video-a9639021.html%3famp

www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

I don't understand why everyone isn't vegetarian either. I find it very upsetting.

You’re making many claims without sources, but for the sake of argument I’ll assume you’re correct.
I have lived in or near the countryside most of my life. I have friends who are beef farmers. Now and again I read the farming press. I used to look after small flock of sheep. I have only ever seen sheep inside when lambing. I'm probably correct.

This may be true of British grass fed beef etc but we’ve already discussed in this thread that every time someone eats a chicken sandwich from Tesco or a burger in a pub etc they have no idea where the meat is coming from, and a huge amount of it is from places like Thailand and the US where the animals are absolutely not grazing on pasture.
That wasn't what I was discussing. And to be fair, in the US many cattle spend most of their lives on rangeland and are only finished on feedlots to put some bulk on in the final months of their lives.

This is simply not true. 70% of soya is fed directly to livestock
Again, I was talking about livestock in the UK, specifically cattle and sheep. Much of the soy fed to animals (and in the UK it mostly goes to poultry, pigs and fish) is meal that has had the oil extracted for human consumption. This detailed breakdown might be of interest

In response to what I said about cattle in the UK being fed silage in the winter, and cattle and sheep eating stuff like stubble turnips:
Again, no sources, and again this defence only holds up if you’re literally only ever consuming organic, grass-fed, british animals.
No, plenty of non-organic beef is over-wintered on silage. Plenty of non-organic lamb gets put on stubble turnips. Farmers do no want to put animals onto supplementary feed if they can avoid it, as supplementary feed costs money. You might give ewes extra before tupping and again in late pregnancy, but how much would depend on the quality of the grazing and the thriftiness of the ewes.

You might also like to watch this video. It is very cheering, after all the depression on this thread, Herbivores can be good for soil, and probably for the planet.

I don't understand why everyone isn't vegetarian either

Because I like the taste of meat. Because I think it's part of our natural diet. Because I crave meat if I don't eat it. Whilst I think it's unpleasant and unjustifiable in a logical sense, I will admit I just don't care enough. People talk on here as if factory farmed meat is a social taboo and only something desperately poor people buy. In reality, go to your supermarket, vast majority of people are buying it.

I have lived in or near the countryside most of my life. I have friends who are beef farmers. Now and again I read the farming press. I used to look after small flock of sheep. I have only ever seen sheep inside when lambing. I'm probably correct.

Presumably though you can understand the limits of you self-proclaiming knowledge on an anonymous forum where nobody can check your credentials. If you don’t have sources for your claims, they’re always going to be in doubt.

Again, I was talking about livestock in the UK

And I’ve already explained that limiting your discussions to animals raised in the U.K. is only part of the picture when a lot of animals eaten in the U.K. were not raised in the U.K..

What’s your response to the links I posted showing that diets including meat always come out bottom in assessments of environmental impacts? I’d be interested in your views on that.

I’ll watch your video later, can’t at the moment because I’m in public and don’t have my headphones.

Whilst I think it's unpleasant and unjustifiable in a logical sense, I will admit I just don't care enough.

I think this is probably how most people feel, but they just don’t want to admit it. I’d much rather they were at least honest about it like you, instead of trying to find justifications, or going on the attack about other things.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.plantbasednews.org/.amp/culture/rspca-dairy-farm-footage-abuse

Here’s another example of animal cruelty exposed by animal rights activists, this time on a dairy farm so not covered by the red tractor scheme.

And I get genuinely pissy with people who refuse to tackle the uncomfortable fact that, for people to eat, other animals have to die. They sit there, with their cupboards full of bread, fruit and vegetables, for which untold numbers of insects, rodents rabbits, deer and pigeons were killed, and preach at those of us who think it's fine to rear an animal in a high-welfare system, stun it into insensibility, kill it and eat it.

This is an excellent point that is made too infrequently.
I am not entirely sure why larger mammals are worthy of this level of attention while insects which are actually more necessary to our ecosystems are ignored?
Is it because they are cuter? More visible?

@lakesidesummer

And I get genuinely pissy with people who refuse to tackle the uncomfortable fact that, for people to eat, other animals have to die. They sit there, with their cupboards full of bread, fruit and vegetables, for which untold numbers of insects, rodents rabbits, deer and pigeons were killed, and preach at those of us who think it's fine to rear an animal in a high-welfare system, stun it into insensibility, kill it and eat it.

This is an excellent point that is made too infrequently.
I am not entirely sure why larger mammals are worthy of this level of attention while insects which are actually more necessary to our ecosystems are ignored?
Is it because they are cuter? More visible?

It’s actually a point that is made OFTEN. And you do realise that when you eat animals they also eat the crops that vegans/vegetarians eat...so you are also complicit in the deaths of the small animals and insects that are killed by crop growing and harvesting. And on top of that all the animals that are killed for meat.

And I assume you also eat fruit vegetables and bread?

And I get genuinely pissy with people who refuse to tackle the uncomfortable fact that, for people to eat, other animals have to die. They sit there, with their cupboards full of bread, fruit and vegetables, for which untold numbers of insects, rodents rabbits, deer and pigeons were killed, and preach at those of us who think it's fine to rear an animal in a high-welfare system, stun it into insensibility, kill it and eat it.

But we have been told that there isn't an issue... so shut up, sod off!

That's part of the problem. The finger pointing can only go one way and be acceptable. There are issues with ALL food production because we don't eat 'natural' foods. We farm everything more intensively than land would allow, we have to intervene with every crop! Some part of the living food chain suffers with every crop we grow! That is a truth you just cannot deny... no matter how many hectares are put to which use, kcals are produced per acre etc. EVERY hectare is managed, changed, damaged in some way!

So maybe stop and think about where ALL of your food comes from. Do what you can within your budget to stop buying food miles; eat local; eat seasonal; eat ethically.

And check your clothing, toiletries, make up etc too. They are all grown somewhere!

Not worried we in the EU have the highest animal welfare standards in the world and we actually enforce them. It’s places like the US and Mexico that do real factory farming.

But we have been told that there isn't an issue... so shut up, sod off!

Who on this thread has said this?

As I said in my earlier post, I only buy free range from a butchers, never from a supermarket. It is more expensive but I eat less meat as a result. I have a limited diet as I am an extremely fussy eater and if I chose to be vegetarian or vegan I would starve to death. Added to which I enjoy eating meat and neither this or any of the many other similar threads will make me change my mind. Homo Sapiens are omnivores and meat is a part of their diet.

And you do realise that when you eat animals they also eat the crops that vegans/vegetarians eat..

They don’t eat palm oil a vegan favourite ingredient which is making the orangutans extinct.

So maybe stop and think about where ALL of your food comes from. Do what you can within your budget to stop buying food miles; eat local; eat seasonal; eat ethically

How can you possibly be assuming that many people on this thread aren’t doing that?!

They don’t eat palm oil a vegan favourite ingredient which is making the orangutans extinct

Citation needed for palm oil being a vegan favourite? It’s in a lot of food and non-food products which are used and eaten by meat eaters. Many people who are aware of the deforestation caused by palm oil plantations avoid it, vegan and meat eaters alike

Who on this thread has said this? A few have said as much woth all that "Oh, but it is more this... less that" replies. Read it back! The rebuttals have been as glib as "Well that doesn't fly".

@PlanDeRaccordement sadly animal feed does include palm oil. Feed is cheaper and more fattening with it in!

HappyHerbivore
Presumably though you can understand the limits of you self-proclaiming knowledge on an anonymous forum where nobody can check your credentials. If you don’t have sources for your claims, they’re always going to be in doubt.
Sure. But most people could find out a lot more about farming than they do by reading a few copies of Farmer's Weekly. It's only recently that intensive beef production has come to the UK see here and the cattle fattened in those systems have spent most of their lives on pasture.

And I’ve already explained that limiting your discussions to animals raised in the U.K. is only part of the picture when a lot of animals eaten in the U.K. were not raised in the U.K.
True. But a lot are. So what I am saying remains relevant.

What’s your response to the links I posted showing that diets including meat always come out bottom in assessments of environmental impacts?
Well, maybe . And also the earlier video I posted, about the power of well-managed ruminants to sequester carbon.

And given that we are going to be culling rabbits, pigeon and deer to enable crops to be grown, would you eat them?

And I assume you also eat fruit vegetables and bread?
What I was saying is that EVERYONE is complicit in the killing of animals for food. There is no way around it. So I get very tired of efforts to try and make me feel guilty for eating animals which are raised (with decent welfare standards) for slaughter.

We evolved eating meat. We evolved as hunters.