To wonder if you know that the meat you buy could have been raised in a factory farm...

[MsWonderful]

And that the animals could also have been subjected to horrific cruelty even if the farm is Red Tractor approved?
www.daventry.radio/daventry-farm-suspended-from-red-tractor-scheme-amid-animal-welfare-concerns/

I think/hope I’ve said that the farmers on this thread are clearly not involved in factory farming, from your own descriptions of your farms
But I don't need validation of this. In the case of sheep farming, you need to go to China for intensive sheep farms.
Why don't you focus your efforts in real life to campaign against animal cruelty.

@derxa

I think/hope I’ve said that the farmers on this thread are clearly not involved in factory farming, from your own descriptions of your farms But I don't need validation of this. In the case of sheep farming, you need to go to China for intensive sheep farms. Why don't you focus your efforts in real life to campaign against animal cruelty.

What’s your beef then, if you don’t need validation?

Red Tractor is a really low seal of approval, that's been common knowledge for years surely?

I haven't said rape or murder
I didn't say you had. I said these threads tend to go that way. Another poster got onto murder some while ago.

What's your beef then, if you don't need validation
I would imagine trying to offer a counterweight to the sometimes inaccurate representation of British farming. It would piss me off, if I was a farmer.

Very early on in the thread there were some sweeping generalizations made about animal farming.
I'm not surprised that more traditional farmers wished to highlight that not all farming practices are the same.

@MsWonderful

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.plantbasednews.org/.amp/culture/rspca-dairy-farm-footage-abuse

Here’s another example of animal cruelty exposed by animal rights activists, this time on a dairy farm so not covered by the red tractor scheme.

Showing some ignorance there. Good Dairy farmers are signed up to red tractor and are regularly inspected. assurance.redtractor.org.uk/contentfiles/Farmers-6802.pdf

@GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman

And to another poster - there is a huge difference between animals bred and raised by humans for consumption and those living their natural wild lives who are culled for the sake of humans having crops to eat. This thread is about the animals people consume being raised in pain, fear, abuse and horror. Yeah, I'm that poster. I have said on this thread that I dislike animal cruelty, and I have specified that since we are culling animals so we can eat, I have no problem with animals being raised for slaughter in high-welfare systems.

There is a world of difference between that and a deer who has lived wild, doing whatever they like until the point where a skilled huntsman or woman kills them with a single shot.
There is not IMHO a big difference between an animal in an extensive system who is kept in good health, is well fed, and so on, and a deer. Life for a wild animal is not entirely hunky-dory. Deer are often killed and injured on the roads - it's a lucky injured deer which is tracked and shot. They can sometimes carry a significant parasite burden (which would be treated in a sheep or cow). And sadly, even the best marksman (or woman) won't always manage the single shot. Rabbits are predated on by foxes, feral cats, anything that thinks it's in with a chance... Nature is pretty bloody brutal.

Agreed - nature can be brutal. As I've said - personally I have no issue with actual high welfare meat. But around the world is the majority of meat produced high welfare?

This thread is about animals not raised in high welfare systems. The fact that other animals are culled for humans to have crops is irrelevant to what the thread is about. The fact that there is true high welfare meat in the UK is irrelevant while there are still shitty abusive farms out there, which is the subject of the thread. It is the NAMALT of animal husbandry. NAFALT, but some are and that is unacceptable imo.

What’s your beef then, if you don’t need validation? I don't want all farmers being tarred with the same brush. I know I'm doing the best I can for my animals. I look out onto my field of 8 shearlings who live the life of Reilly eating and lounging all day and think of people shouting about animal cruelty. I find that a bit baffling.

www2.gov.scot/Topics/farmingrural/SRDP/RuralPriorities/HowItWorks/Inspections/OnFarmnspection
We can be inspected at any time plus we have our annual farm assurance inspection.

It's great that you and many others take good care of your animals, but that does not mitigate the fact that some do not. Those 'shouting about animal cruelty' are not talking about you.

But these animals are still killed for meat. Not medal worthy in my opinion.

Isn't it common knowledge that the meat industry is absolutely heinous and puts profit way before animal welfare?

Sweeping generalisation about the whole meat industry

Today's meat industry is horrific any way you look at it

All of it?

However most people are already be aware that higher welfare meat doesn't mean the animal is running freely having a wonderful life

So...is it in a cage then? Or those big green things call fields? Perhaps the ones in fields are just pretending to be there.

I have seen grass fed/organic etc (empty words to make US feel better) gassed alongside the ones raised in barns. No fucking humanity shown to either one

Apparently grass fed/ organic are just empty words and not a real thing.

Oh and anyone fall for the "outdoor bred pork"...it means mum gave birth outside before being moved inside and put into metal cage...."outdoor bred" makes it sound all lovely......complete marketing con!

Mummy Pigs are all caged apparently.

Totally agree areallthe Over 95% of pigs are caged in the UK

At least they acknowledged they 'accidentally' said UK instead of US (Also not true in the US either btw). Reminder, this stat is just entirely untrue.

you are no better because you own a farm. You profit of the back of their misery

Farmers are just in it to make profit from miserable animals. Someone needs to tell my accountant because she seems to think most of my income comes from subsidies that keep food prices low for everyone else.

You are quite oblivious and really have never paused to think about the meat you're eating have you? That it was a result of fear, misery, torture, anguish, pain, death. You are sick enough to actually question if any 1 animal would ever agree to this and willingly go through this nightmare ordeal resulting in their murder

I'm simple apparently. Probably because I'm a farmer. I didn't even realise those sheep and cows outside my window end up as food.

that is just a snapshot of the suggestions that have been made just in this thread that 'high welfare' farming (I.e what Derxa and I recognise as just normal British farming) Isn't real, is a con, we are murderers etc.

This thread is about animals not raised in high welfare systems.
This thread has gone all over the place, as threads tend to do (with the added extra of plenty of misinformation) and I was responding to a poster who seemed to have misinterpreted what I was saying.

The fact that other animals are culled for humans to have crops is irrelevant to what the thread is about.
As I said, the thread has gone all over the place, including people accusing the meat-eaters of being 'defensive'. I think it was in my discussion of that that I first mentioned culling.

The fact that other animals are culled for humans to have crops is irrelevant to what the thread is about.
And actually, thinking about this some more, when you have some posters trying to guilt other posters for eating meat, reminding them of the unpleasant realities of crop production is entirely justified.

Ok, fair point. It is wasteful if the edible animals that are culled are not eaten. I know some are - I wonder what percentage.

But these animals are still killed for meat If you're talking about my shearlings then they're not. They're breeding animals.

I don't want all farmers being tarred with the same brush. I know I'm doing the best I can for my animals. I look out onto my field of 8 shearlings who live the life of Reilly eating and lounging all day and think of people shouting about animal cruelty. I find that a bit baffling.

Literally nobody has done this. People have gone to great pains to acknowledge that not all farms / farmers are cruel. But you persist in acting as though any discussion of specific instances of cruelty which are known to have actually, definitely occurred is somehow an indictment of you and your farm.

You don’t need to turn a blind eye to cruelty that you know is occurring to defend British farming. Why is it so hard for you to accept that cruelty happens on some farms and is a very bad thing?

So, the thread is now just two farmers patting themselves on the back. Great job guys. Keep up the good work. Fuck the animals,they die anyway,right?

And actually, thinking about this some more, when you have some posters trying to guilt other posters for eating meat, reminding them of the unpleasant realities of crop production is entirely justified.

Would still love to know why you’re absolved of responsibility for the unpleasant realities of crop farming just because you also, in addition, participate in the unpleasant realities of animal farming.

In any industry or profession, there are practitioners who fall below the desired standards. This is true of nurses, teachers, doctors, lawyers, accountants and literally any other occupation. It is also true of farming. Assurance schemes attempt to regulate all UK farmers and inevitably there will be farmers who do not reach the desired standard, just as there will be members of others occupations and professions who fail to maintain standards, through laziness, incompetence, cost cutting or a host of other reasons. But the point is that our standards are much higher than the rest of the world, and that very few of the British animal products are produced from animals who are treated cruelly. As a lawyer but also living on a dairy farm, I simply don't recognise these cruelly treated animals as being the ones I see at the bottom of the garden. Whatever our occupation, we are all seeking to improve our working practices and hope that those with sharp practices are removed from the profession. Bad farmers are an embarrassment to the profession as much as the solicitor who has stolen the money out of client account or the nurse who has failed to look after a patient properly. But to tar all members of that occupation with the same brush is grossly unfair.

But to tar all members of that occupation with the same brush is grossly unfair.

I’m also a lawyer. But when someone says ‘this lawyer misappropriated client funds and stole thousands for their own use’ I don’t immediately become defensive, insist that I’ve never seen anything like that at my own firm so it must be wrong, or claim that acknowledging such wrongs somehow brings the entire legal profession into disrepute.

I’m able to recognise when wrongdoing occurs in my industry and accept that more can and should be done to prevent it without feeling the need to dispute it, minimise it, or brush it under the carpet out of fear for what it might mean for me.

And that is why Scrowy and Derxa represent the best and are appalled at the way the animals referred to by the OP are treated. Can you show me where a farmer has defended this as good practice?

Fuck the animals,they die anyway,right?

No one would condone that, it is strictly illegal.

Would still love to know why you’re absolved of responsibility for the unpleasant realities of crop farming just because you also, in addition, participate in the unpleasant realities of animal farming.

I think the difference is that meat eaters acknowledge more readily that their consumption habits lead to animal deaths.
It isn't about being absolved from responsibility, it is about accepting responsibility.

Veganism is a way of living which seeks to exclude, as far as is possible and practicable all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose.

I have not seen anyone on a plant based diet claim that there are no casualties in the making of their food.

m.youtube.com/watch?v=uQCe4qEexjc