Have you and your partner/spouse both managed to have successful careers whilst raising children, or has one career suffered?

[Dr1ppin]

I keep reading that you ‘can’t have it all’ and something has to give. My husband is currently the breadwinner and works long hours but I want to start focusing on my career now (he has never stopped me and has only ever encouraged me). I just wondered how realistic it is of me to expect to be able to focus on my career whilst raising children especially if my husband works long hours? Our children are 18 months and newborn. Is it going to be one or the other for me?

I agree with you, but if you dial back the work you won’t achieve as much career-wise. I’m at the career stage now where I can start looking to do less and delegate more. So hopefully I can achieve what you describe! However that’s only possible after 20 years of the kind of long days and heavy schedule most people would run a mile at.

Not all careers will take that long though, I've only been in mine 10 years, it's just a sector/employer that very much values work life balance and flexibility.

there are many, many jobs (careers?) that mean you can't just switch off at 5pm, whether or not you have dc. Not being able to do that doesn't mean you don't have a good work life balance, or a good balance of being a parent and working outside the home. Lots of people get great satisfaction from those jobs - completing a project or sealing a deal or solving a problem or helping a child learn or whatever - those are the things that make that career satisfying and worth while.

Of course there are, but for me, going back to the description described which was working evening, weekends and not being able to take that sunny day off isn't the "balance" I'm striving for, if I did that I'd never see my kids or husband, or be able to unwind by myself. That's why to me, "having it all" is having a satisfying and worthwhile career without having to sacrifice my own time and my family time, having the ability to keep work to 9-5 (and flexibly) as that's when others in my house are out, is important.

I'm lucky in that my DH does quite a bit of drop offs/pick ups/sick days but this is massively helped by the fact he can wfh & has flexi hours. He was offered 2 jobs ly but only 1 offered remote working so he turned the other day "because his wife worked & he has small dc". He also does all the childminder & cleaner organising & most of the cooking. However he had a SAHD & a working mum growing up so he definitely has less defined gender roles of household jobs. I do think he sees his job as more important than mine because it pays more.

The mum has a career .the other takes care of the kids.
The dad has a carereer. The other person takes care of the kid.
Both have a career. Kids are always at childcare/after school care etc.

That doesn't have to be the case though. I'm not a high flier & earn 30k but I work pt, can wfh, have a tiny commute & am pretty much TTO. I still class it as a career because I can increase my hours, take on more responsibility & progress.

@HazelWong

Yeah, my DH has only ever encouraged me too. Except, he would never compromise his career prospects so as to take on more of the domestic load. Would yours OP? If not, he’s not as supportive as all that is he.

I agree that this is often the big issue. I see a lot on here (including on this thread), statements like "my DH's career is not flexible, he works away so I have to..." Basically a subconscious assumption that men can't be expected to compromise their careers in any way, it's just about whether their wife can work around it. Women in inflexible careers make changes when they have children.

We do manage to have serious careers but it has involved some compromise from both of us: we both have to turn down opportunities from time to time because it doesn't work around the kids and sometimes we have to let work down because the kids are ill, etc. It works because we both have fairly understanding employers (including the ability to be four days a week), earn enough to outsource (e.g. we have started paying for someone to put flat pack together), and because my DH doesn't view it as my job to work around him.

Are you suggesting that people who have careers that aren't flexible shouldn't have kids?

My husband's career at times was not flexible - his job was to live for half the year on a remote island with a bunch of seals.

Should I have demanded he not take that job? I could have, and we discussed the implications. The fact that we decided he should take it has nothing to do "expecting" he not compromise his career. We decided not to do so because it seemed to be the best idea for our family and, as it happens, both our personal preferences.

We both have careers
But we do not both have the careers we would have had without DC
I worked PT when D.C. were young and now I cannot undo that as boss is used to me working for free
DH never formally worked PT but he has his own business and is flexible and it was understood he would do sick days etc. That is a less useful contribution as they get older.

I am the higher earner and yet I suspect it's my career that has taken more of a hit. Makes no sense but that's patriarchy for you.
Wow do you find out that that shit is real when you have kids: DH lauded for any contribution to DC eg attending an assembly (oh he's such a good dad) me: social opprobrium if I do not attend such occasions (are you not going? Again?)

When DC2 was about 2 I was offered a senior position and I negotiated to work it 4 days a week instead of FT to still have time with DC. The work did not go away I just crammed it into 4 days and got paid less. Now that the children are at secondary I'd like to go back to FT but of course my boss is not going to pay me more money to work the same job I've been doing on 4 days for years! I can only go FT if I take on extra responsibility and yet if I hadn't talked myself out of it I could have been paid FT for the same job all these years. Like my male colleagues have done.
And that is how the gender pay gap happens. 'Choice' to work LTFT my arse.

I'd say that if you do choose to work PT
-Make sure your partner does too otherwise every single thing at home will become your responsibility on that 1 day
-Make sure you have a job share or you clearly negotiate less work for less time or you will just be working 5 days in 4 and you can never undo it

Shared parental leave I think is a game changer. It would give fathers and employers the right idea from the start that men are parents too. Wasn't available when I had DC and still wouldn't be now as DH self employed. Apparently only 3% of people take it because both parents have to be eligible and the paperwork is an arse. If it was more widespread I think it would start to challenge assumptions

I have one friend whose partner was a SAHD for quite a while and then later he retrained, went back to work and she went PT. I do envy that they have a really equal relationship where there are no assumptions on who will do what. I think it's beautiful that they have supported one another. They are not well off though so I guess that's the choice you make.

DH's career is about as inflexible as you can get, military, goes where he's told and away months at a time. Thankfully, my job is on the other end of the flexibility scale so that's how we make it work. But, when DH isn't deployed or doing something genuinely important he has to put his foot down and make sure he gets the leave he needs or is the one to pick up the sick child, because many seniors in the military have a very hard time understanding military personnel are not always automatically available and if they have children they have responsibilities too and it shouldn't always be the non serving spouse. But it is a fight, particularly when it's the male partner serving.

Wow do you find out that that shit is real when you have kids:

Yep! I was born when Thatcher was in, was brought up to think I could achieve anything, went to all girls high school which encouraged ambition, worked in very female dominated industries & never saw sexism at work or the world really. Then I had dc & BAM!

DHs company now offer 3 months paid paternity leave which I think is a good step forward.

I am hoping Covid might change things in a positive way for women

I am really questioning some of these men and their jobs that need them to work long hours and fly around the world constantly whilst their (equally intelligent and educated) wife parents and cleans and works her own job. I bet half these business trips to the US and China could be covered off on a few Zoom meetings with less harm to the environment. It's just that no-one ever questions the assumption that he 'has to go'

Long commutes to posh plate glass offices in London to do a job that's mostly at a desk? Why exactly? People have found out via Covid that lots of people can very successfully work from home at least some of the time thus saving commute time, costs and petrol and giving them more time with their families.

On a small level I have entirely stopped commuting to meetings at different sites and do it all via video calls now. Huge improvement all round enabled by a huge push to get tech and training in place for all and a culture shift all due to Covid. I am doing stuff remotely that I assumed would never be possible before. I imagine this is being played out in workplaces everywhere.

I think many less people have inherently 'inflexible careers' than think they do. It's mostly just assumptions and the way it's always been done and vested interests in preventing change (airline industry, oil wealth)

I am on my own and work full time with an 18 month old. My ex never has him, and no family support in terms of childcare. He goes to the childminder (as it's cheaper) and I work at the same level as I did before maternity leave. I don't feel guilty about him being in childcare, because me working is keeping a roof over our heads and is helping provide financial security for him. Growing up in a household which struggled to put food on the table I believe that to be very important. I don't pay for a cleaner or anything, the house isn't sparkling but it's hygienic and tidy, especially the rooms DS plays in. I do a lot of quick meals such as stir frys, or things I can just chuck in the oven like chicken thighs and baked pots then some veg in the microwave, so we still eat well. I get a few hours in the evening when he is asleep to prep stuff for the next day, and more importantly, relax. It depends on the job, mine is mid level and has a tiny bit of flexibility, but not much. If DS is poorly I work from home around his naps etc, take a days leave, or a day unpaid, it's not the end of the world. When he starts school as long as she is still working the childminder will do wrap around, or I'll apply for part time at that point. If I had a partner who did even just one thing it would be easier, but it's doable. I am nothing special, I'm actually quite lazy but don't really have a choice so you get on with it.

For us, I am actually the one with the 'career' mind and my DH has 'a job'. However, his job pays significantly more than mine, so my career has taken a bit hit. Considering I cant do much progression wise while working part time, and working full time and paying full time childcare means I take home about 150 a month to the household, I think my career will be on hold for a total of about 6 years. That's huge. I am watching men who qualified the same time as me going up and up and up and I am stuck. Even if I just took maternity leave and went back full time, it's a 2 year hit for 2 kids really by the time you get back up and running. Then once you count in the inability to do meetings after 5PM because nursery finishes or you cant say yes to training weekends away or you have to pick you kids up sick from nursery at 12pm on a Tuesday, you realise your reputation as a committed worker disappears.

Dont get me wrong, it's a choice really. I chose to have kids knowing the knock on effect, and I chose to go part time as it made financial sense and I didnt want my kids in childcare 5 days a week for 9 hours a day. But, i really do think you cant have it all. Some try, but I do think it means the kids have to be pushed to one side in favour of the careers of both parents. I did feel angry as I had been told 'get educated and you can have your career' when the reality was 'except if you are a woman who ever wants kids'.

Unfortunately though, a lot of the people I know who have inflexible jobs because they have old-fashioned bosses who value presenteeism above pretty much all else. Unless they in turn have a boss who can override them then you have to go into the office and you have to go on the business trips.

I’d be interested to hear from mums who have got through the young children years with their careers intact, and have ended up with caring responsibilities for their own parents.
I’ve never had a career orientated bone in my body, and have always worked part time since having kids-very decent job though, and I earn a lot more than a lot of people working full time.

For the last 20 years caring for first my mum then my dad has had a much bigger impact than having young children.

How do others in good careers manage to balance this? Is it even possible? I’ve had to be called away from work regarding my parents way more than I did for child issues. Is it as big an issue as having young children?

Depends what you mean by “have it all”

You can raise children and have both partners with careers as successful as they want them to be. My DH and I have raised 4 DC and #3 is now 18 and about to head to university. Leaving only the youngest now. We both have successful careers. Not to the extent of being top in our fields, but well respected and in senior positions. I think if you want to be the CEO of the next Space X and Tesla, yes something is going to give. But if you just want to be upper management or a senior scientist/professor it is absolutely attainable while raising children.

But this is only true if you are privileged enough to have careers that can fund full time wrap around child care. Many families cannot and for them the “cannot have it all” is true because it doesn’t make economic sense to work for less pay than the cost of childcare.

I was widowed with two babies, and my nearest relative 250 miles away. My childminder had a depressive relapse at the same time and couldn’t take my DC any more.
I didn’t have a choice - I had to work to support my DC.
So I hired a nanny and continued my career as a hospital doctor for the next 25 years until my retirement.
Having the luxury of a partner to share the load would have made it a doddle. If any mums on here are wondering how to continue their career - how do you think single mums cope?

@Yeahnahmum

You cant have it all simply means:

-The mum has a career .the other takes care of the kids.
-The dad has a carereer. The other person takes care of the kid.
-Both have a career. Kids are always at childcare/after school care etc.

There are choices. But there is always a "you can't have it all" situation..

Ish, but you can still both have careers without the DC always being in childcare, we're proof of that. It just means there are going to be some compromises as well: so not 'having it all' but still a career. It isn't necessarily the case that a career has to involve a person working flat out, or even FT.

I’d be interested to hear from mums who have got through the young children years with their careers intact, and have ended up with caring responsibilities for their own parents.

I’m not quite there yet but it is on the horizon. It is something you do need to plan for as a family. My youngest will finish university in five years and be then responsible to fund graduate degrees or have work and live independently. My father is 75. So I do plan an early retirement for DH and I to go and care for my father in 5 yrs when he turns 80. He is very independent and fit but 80 is usually when they need someone to be local (currently a long plane flight away). I am also eldest so it’s my responsibility really as my siblings all have much younger children. So we are only ones who are mobile and can make ourselves available. I will be early 50s then. We have money enough to retire now, so long as the markets don’t crash any further! (My mother passed away 20yrs ago, and my DHs parents died when he was a teen).

I think it depends on the careers and the ability to be flexible and also your personal views on how much time in childcare is ok.

Prior to covid, my dh and I both did 4 days. I am pretty much full time compressed hours. My dh starts late so does all drop offs. I start very early (6:30am in office) to 4 so I can pick up from childcare. My mum also had my ds for a day. It felt an ok balance.

Sometimes I work away and my DH work allow him to take short lunches, make up time etc so he can pick up then too. My work let me wfh so I do most the school events in the day and doctors appointments etc.

Without that flexibility it wouldnt work.

I think for you, it depends on your careers and how willing your dh is in reality to pick up his share. Half the (many) sick days, share of pick ups and drop offs, parent events etc. If it's all on you, its still doable but costs money in childcare and you will need to be happy to miss some things.

Having the luxury of a partner to share the load would have made it a doddle. If any mums on here are wondering how to continue their career - how do you think single mums cope?

Quite.

As others have suggested, having family support and enough money to outsource some of the domestic chores makes having DC and a career much, much easier.

DH and I both work and he earns roughly 7 times what I do, but I love my work and wouldn't consider walking away from it. Nor do I expect him earning more to mean that he won't/can't pull his weight. So when I travel with work, he makes sure he's around, when he travels with work, I make sure I'm around. When the DC are unwell we both juggle our calendars so that one of us is available.

The only time there was ever a real issue was last year when DS1 was badly injured and needed endless hospital treatment and time off school. I struggled so much with it all that I asked my most senior boss for a leave of absence rather than break myself in two trying to work it out, (she was incredible and paid me in full for the 13 weeks I was off). There was absolutely no way DH would have been able to take 13 weeks off at the drop of a hat and the disparity was hard to miss - it was assumed that as the woman I would be the one whose career took the hit when it came to long-term absence.

It’s a balance in order to both achieve a career we’ve both made sacrifices.
My husband gets emails from school with dates of activities so he can keep his work diary flexible.
We both shared nursery/school drop off. We communicate if there are changes to our working pattern.
Most importantly we both put our children first - if they poorly, holidays & staff training days these are shared. This has meant he would have to organise with work - it used to annoy him when other work colleagues would say why you doing that & not your wife. But they are both our children.
Until more fathers can do this without fear then it makes it harder for females. It is changing I know a SAH Dad, father with primary custody & 50/50 shared - all with happy children & parents working in successful careers.
It’s a balance and my husband does earn more than me but it all goes into a shared pot :)

People who have cleaners and nannies can't possibly offer the same perspective on this as people who can't afford such luxuries. It's maybe possible to 'have it all' if you have this extra help, but if you're doing it on a combined income of less than 50/60k it's a very different story, as full time childcare is really expensive and lower incomes just don't cover it, so someone (often the woman) has to adjust career expectations to make things work. Luckily I'm not bothered at all that I now work
PT (I actually much prefer it!) but I can imagine it can be very tricky for some people to not progress as they'd like in a career due to having a family.

Being a single mum is a whole different ballgame.

doesn’t mean it’s a ‘doddle’ to be a mother WoH with a partner.

Considering I cant do much progression wise while working part time, and working full time and paying full time childcare means I take home about 150 a month to the household, I think my career will be on hold for a total of about 6 years.

^This is one of the main reasons that women end up with less of a career than men. If you work FT and pay for childcare you are not “only taking home about 150 per month”. First of all, you’re actually only responsible for half^ of the childcare bill - why isn’t your DH considering that childcare costs are impacting his salary equally? They are his DC too. Secondly, you’d presumably be paying into a pension (dropping to PT adversely affects women into retirement - why aren’t we talking about this issue more?), building up your NI contributions, getting pay rises (OK - perhaps not this year), building up experience, etc. Plus if an amazing career opportunity arises you have everything in place to take it and build from there. The “only earning xxx after childcare” is a fallacy that has a massive impact on women and their career prospects, and which men don’t even think about.

but he has always been supportive of me progressing, just not with the helping out at home side.

This

A partner being supportive in name only, isn’t supportive. If you’re the one doing the pick ups and drop offs, taking time out for their appointments or because they are sick, the default person who is called when there is an issue with childcare or when they are at school, the one that packs the lunches, washes the PE kit, signs the forms, makes the appointments etc. Then it will have a greater impact on your career then your partner’s.

Sadly in my experience, when a man says ‘I support you’, it usually comes with the unspoken ‘as long as it doesn’t impact me’ caveat.

Expectation, expectation, expectation. When it comes to raising children the general expectation and reality, is that women will do the lions share and men will opt in to the bits they like and or are convenient for them. Research shows that when women go back to work the dynamic of being the default parent and head of domestic services rarely changes.

Actions speak louder than words and those actions need to be happening before you go back.

So I hired a nanny and continued my career as a hospital doctor for the next 25 years until my retirement.
Having the luxury of a partner to share the load would have made it a doddle. If any mums on here are wondering how to continue their career - how do you think single mums cope?

You must have been earning really good money to be able to afford a full time nanny though. Where I live, full time nannies are about £25-30k a year.

That’s what people on this thread have been saying - if you can afford to pay for the necessary childcare, of course it’s easier to keep a career going.

You wouldn’t have been able to afford a full time nanny if you were a primary school teacher or a nurse would you?