To think this is more than hormones with DS?

[MiaThermopolis]

Quick background: DS1 is 10. Eldest of 4 DC. He's a 'gifted' child acedemically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

The issue is his behaviour/temper at home. For the last 12-18months it seems to be getting worse.

Examples: All DC have a daily tick list - a couple of chores along with the standard 'get up, get dressed, make bed' etc. Chores are on a rota so everyone has the same number of 'set up breakfast' 'empty dishwasher' 'do laundry' etc. it is completely fair and equal. Yet every time we tell DS to get on with his list he growls, huffs, scowls that its not fair. if he then doesnt do it and we ask him again to get on with it he starts screaming in our faces 'I'M DOING IT!' (when he's clearly not) or 'I DONT WANT TO!' etc.

He reacts this way to being asked to do anything that may consitute a 'job' or 'chore'.

Once he's in a temper about something he will then scream at anyone and everyone. For example if one of the other DCs come to ask me a question he will scream 'I DONT CARE!' at them or 'SHUT UP'.

We have a clearly laid out set of consequences - first they loose a token from their reward tube, then screens are removed for the day, then its go to bed early. we are very consistant with this.

It's like a red mist desends and he cannot calm down once something has set him off and he can wizz through all those consequences in minutes as he seems not to hear us or will not respond to us asking him to leave the room to calm down.

He has his own room which we have sorted with him to make it a nice private space and have tried to encourage him to take a break up there when he feels angry but once the red mist descends he wont go.

He can also be violent, hitting walls, slamming doors, growling and screaming in the other DCs faces. he will also lash out has his siblings.

DH and I are at our wits end with it. we are doing all the 'right' things - he gets one on one time with us, he has his own room, he has clear boundaries and consequences but nothing seems to be improving this.

Yet in between he is the sweetest, cleverest, most interesting boy. we joke often that he would be a perfect only child (as a lot of anger starts with his siblings and the perceived 'not fair' devision of work). When we have him on his own he is an absolute delight.

I spoke to his teacher who said it is likely to be hormones and puberty starting but part of me is wondering could it be signs that he has some level of autism? anyone had similar and successfully navigated it?

Help please!!

itsgetting the more you say the more it resonates. DS can lecture on any animal you care to name, he can recite the synopsis of every book he's ever read but ask him why his shoes are in the middle of the floor and he looks as confused as if you'd asked him to do quantum physics on the spot! he cannot put anything away, even to the point of opening a drawer to get something it doesnt occur to him to shut it afterwards. if he is doing something you absolutely cannot ask something else of him until he's finished, he just cant compute more than one thing - verbal lists are a no-go (hence he and I came up with the tick list to try and help as he could then see what he had to do. it has improved things!)

For those who have a dx - how has that helped? Do you get additional support? is it worth pushing for a dx if he has no issues at school? will it be worth having it in place in case school becomes a problem further down the line?

The main way DD’s diagnosis has helped me is, as you suggested in an earlier post, that I don’t get (as) cross and frustrated with her for things I now know she finds harder and has less control over than an NT child.

It has also helped as it’s changed my parenting style. I now realise I need to teach her things like emotional self control, accepting that adults are in charge, winding herself down when she’s tired rather than going nuts ... things NT kids seem to learn more naturally. So I make an active effort to teach these skills - whereas before I might have used a rewards/consequences approach and expected that to work. It won’t with her because she is not (at certain times) in control of her actions.

thanks mini - what do you use instead of reward/consequence?

I know you were asking about your DS but it might be beneficial for you to chat with others with big families. You're very focused on needing a routine because you're a big family. I'm one of six. DH is one of eight. Your family doesn't seem that big
I understand why as a parent, you feel you need everything to be regimented but that isn't always what your DCs need and your current approach isn't the only way to manage four DCs.
I wonder if you're feeling a bit swamped with managing the family and the household hence you're tipping into frustration with your DS when he doesn't stick to the script and challenges your idea of what 'your family' is supposed to be.
Years ago, someone posted very wise advice on MN which was 'your DC isn't you'; their behaviour isn't a reflection of you and you don't need to try to make them in your image. There's an undercurrent that you're constantly vying for control and trying to bat away chaos. That tension will impact a sensitive DC or an anxious one. Chatting with other large families might help you to unclench a little and give you some coping techniques.

A lot of it is me watching out for the moment coming and trying to teach her to calm herself, walk away etc so she doesn’t lash out. I only have two DC though.

If it happens, then wait till the moment has passed (no point trying to do it in red mist phase), discuss what she should have done. Maybe a consequence but a natural one (eg, you need to go in another room as ai can’t trust you near your sister).

@MiaThermopolis

Quick background: DS1 is 10. Eldest of 4 DC. He's a 'gifted' child acedemically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

The issue is his behaviour/temper at home. For the last 12-18months it seems to be getting worse.

Examples: All DC have a daily tick list - a couple of chores along with the standard 'get up, get dressed, make bed' etc. Chores are on a rota so everyone has the same number of 'set up breakfast' 'empty dishwasher' 'do laundry' etc. it is completely fair and equal. Yet every time we tell DS to get on with his list he growls, huffs, scowls that its not fair. if he then doesnt do it and we ask him again to get on with it he starts screaming in our faces 'I'M DOING IT!' (when he's clearly not) or 'I DONT WANT TO!' etc.

He reacts this way to being asked to do anything that may consitute a 'job' or 'chore'.

Once he's in a temper about something he will then scream at anyone and everyone. For example if one of the other DCs come to ask me a question he will scream 'I DONT CARE!' at them or 'SHUT UP'.

We have a clearly laid out set of consequences - first they loose a token from their reward tube, then screens are removed for the day, then its go to bed early. we are very consistant with this.

It's like a red mist desends and he cannot calm down once something has set him off and he can wizz through all those consequences in minutes as he seems not to hear us or will not respond to us asking him to leave the room to calm down.

He has his own room which we have sorted with him to make it a nice private space and have tried to encourage him to take a break up there when he feels angry but once the red mist descends he wont go.

He can also be violent, hitting walls, slamming doors, growling and screaming in the other DCs faces. he will also lash out has his siblings.

DH and I are at our wits end with it. we are doing all the 'right' things - he gets one on one time with us, he has his own room, he has clear boundaries and consequences but nothing seems to be improving this.

Yet in between he is the sweetest, cleverest, most interesting boy. we joke often that he would be a perfect only child (as a lot of anger starts with his siblings and the perceived 'not fair' devision of work). When we have him on his own he is an absolute delight.

I spoke to his teacher who said it is likely to be hormones and puberty starting but part of me is wondering could it be signs that he has some level of autism? anyone had similar and successfully navigated it?

Help please!!

Losing a token is a strange punishment for screaming and shouting age 10. Mine would be grounded and a stern chat about appropriate behaviour.

One thing that might help would be changing rather than removing the screen time I would make him earn it.
If he asks for it point to the list and back off.
No nagging ( hate that word) -its up to him
No chores/ no screen time .
It takes the flash point away.

On my word! Yes! Never shut a drawer.

I tried for a year with this one.

I'd wait for da to go back to what he was doing before then getting him to come back and shut it.

Hoped that by inconveniencing him he'd get it.

Nope!!!

Seriously our boys sound so alike!!!

The main way DD’s diagnosis has helped me is, as you suggested in an earlier post, that I don’t get (as) cross and frustrated with her for things I now know she finds harder and has less control over than an NT child.

It has also helped as it’s changed my parenting style. I now realise I need to teach her things like emotional self control, accepting that adults are in charge, winding herself down when she’s tired rather than going nuts ... things NT kids seem to learn more naturally. So I make an active effort to teach these skills - whereas before I might have used a rewards/consequences approach and expected that to work. It won’t with her because she is not (at certain times) in control of her actions.

That's really good advice for every child. So many parents just assume that children will naturally learn these thing but a great many do not. As parents our expectations of our children are so often way too high. We want them to behave in a non challenging, acceptable way because, if they don't, we see it as being a judgment on ourselves as parents.

We make our lives difficult because we expect them to be sensible, polite, thoughtful, kind, trustworthy from a young age. And because we often treat all our children the same way in order to head off any perceived unfairness. But children are individuals, with their own strengths and weaknesses, on a constant massive learning curve both in school and out.

Whether your child is NT or not you need (OP) to find strategies for managing both his and your expectations. Hopefully some of the literature that's been recommended from other posters will help you to do that. However, it's not just your child's behaviour that you need to manage but your own reactions to that behaviour.

For us the diagnosis helped ds. It was an identity that helped explain the differences between him and his peers.

My ds also has a neurological genetic condition which probably reason for asd.

My ds diagnosed himself anyway.

I'd explained he was going to go and chat to some ladies who would play some games with him and see if we could help him fit in better at school.

Sat in waiting room of Camhs and huge poster in asd.

Ds sat reading it.

Out comes clinical psychologist and invites ds in.

Ds "is that what your testing me for? I was reading that and it's literally like reading about me"

They did diagnose him from that observation as highly likely and after reading my questionnaire as a classic case!

I can't 'ground' him - he doesn't go anywhere (even before lockdown!).

Explosive Child book has arrived so will start on that tonight.

hearing others experience of similar behaviours has really helped.

itsgettingweird well you give me hope that i (and DS) can survive this!! he's just jumped over the PE kit with his name on it in big letters that is sat in the middle of the stairs to take up. 'why didin't you take your pe kit upstairs DS?' 'What pe kit?' was the response!

My Ds was diagnosed with ASD last year age 15. As far as getting him support the diagnosis has not helped one bit and I am continuing to fight the system to try and get him what he needs.

It's helped us understand him more but Ds himself is in denial, so we have a long way to go still.

can't 'ground' him - he doesn't go anywhere (even before lockdown!).
No parties ?
No after school stuff ?
No kicking a ball about with his mates?
he sounds very isolated( cv aside)
Age 10 my DS was doing stuff after school, invited to parties and allowed to go to the park with 2 sensible friends.

I read further and I agree that DC need to do some chores but getting up and dressed is what we all do anyway
I feel exhausted and stressed reading that tbh .

I would expect a 10 year old to know they need to get up and dressed ( school day) dont care if they are more relaxed in the hols.
Have you tried allowing decompression time/ back off after school then they all help with clearing away / packing lunches etc after dinner.
Thats literally all I expected of 8/10 year olds .

he's just jumped over the PE kit with his name on it in big letters that is sat in the middle of the stairs to take up. 'why didin't you take your pe kit upstairs DS?' 'What pe kit?' was the response!

DH, age 40, still does this. I think you may need to lower your expectations just a tad 😁

Following as he sounds very like my 12 year old boy. Sorry, I don't have any advice at the moment though! We are going to take him to an educational psychologist privately as I hear there can be lengthy waits for consultations on the NHS. Just want to know if there is any reason for his behaviour so we can have the right tools to help him and for him to help himself too.

@GreyishDays just curious to know if you were given a reason for not being likely to get a diagnosis, do you mean a positive diagnosis, or one at all? It seems very unfair for you to be refused one!

My ds cannot find things right in front of him if they aren't where he's expecting them to be!

I swear he looks through objects!

Standard conversation in my house after dinner.

Me rinsing my plate. Ds stood behind me for his turn.

Ds: can I go first this plate is hard to hold with one hand (he has physical disability so that's true)

Me: well don't hold it in one hand then

Ds: well my knife and fork are in the other

Me: how do you think you can solve that

Ds: me going now.

Me: or out your cutlery in the plate and hold with 2 hands or put your plate on the worktop next to you whilst you wait.

Few seconds pass.

Ds puts plate down.

I finish.

Turn around. Where's ds?

He walked off because I hadn't said to then rinse it after me by picking it back up. 🤦🏼‍♀️🤣

re: the grounding thing - he's at a very small school so maybe 3-4 parties a year. he isn't sporty so no 'kick arounds' he goes to Cubs during term time. he does have one close friend he goes over to see but not regularly. i've said upthread he's not a 'typical' boy, he's quiet and into solitary activties - lego, building, designing etc. we are very rural and not walking distance from school and his closest friend. and i cant see a punishment being effective if its 2-3 weeks later that something comes up that he would then be told to miss. he wouldn't be overly bothered to miss cubs which is his only wweekly activity.

My son was like that - what actually seemed to calm him down was taking kickboxing lessons - gave him an outlet but they are so heavy on the discipline and not using violence outside of the controlled fighting environment

@MiaThermopolis

We've only just had DS1's diagnosis, but (as a teacher) I've known for years.

It's helpful to know for sure, because it explains every single trait, idiosyncrasy, reaction he's ever had, and I can help his teachers understand his behaviour.

For example, he never walks from A to B, he 'ranges' and takes the longest route. This is a very common autistic trait, because it gives the child time to process any requests/take in the sensory input around them. His teacher couldn't understand why he didn't just plonk himself on the carpet like the other children.

In your DS' case, poor executive function could explain why he seems not to be listening and unable to see a task through from beginning to end.

It just explains so much, and helps us as parents/teachers to realise that the child can't help the way he/she operates, its part of his/her neurodiversity.

@itsgettingweird

Standard conversation in my house after dinner.

Me rinsing my plate. Ds stood behind me for his turn.

Ds: can I go first this plate is hard to hold with one hand (he has physical disability so that's true)

Me: well don't hold it in one hand then

Ds: well my knife and fork are in the other

Me: how do you think you can solve that

Ds: me going now.

Me: or out your cutlery in the plate and hold with 2 hands or put your plate on the worktop next to you whilst you wait.

Few seconds pass.

Ds puts plate down.

I finish.

Turn around. Where's ds?

He walked off because I hadn't said to then rinse it after me by picking it back up. 🤦🏼‍♀️🤣

Good grief what a huge, unnecessary faff!

Seriously you make your DS queue up to rinse his plate
Mine took their plates to the sink, put them in if dishwasher full or straight in dishwasher if empty.
Why the queue for plate rinsing?
Ive never plate rinsed in 50 years, 😂

Style hardly a faff but yours was an over reaction.

I went into kitchen first and was rinsing plate when he picked his up and followed as asked me to go first.

We had gravy and mint sauce and mash. So yes I rinse plates before placing in washing up bowl or your washing plates in water with your dinner in it!

OP, feel I could have written this completely, both about pre-teen DS and about me (as child and still quite a bit as an adult). Agree too that chores are extremely important, part of being in a family, in a household, and wider in society: as if on MN there aren’t enough useless DPs whose parents never made them see chores as routine parts of living, so don’t bother at all now, men who won’t make coffees in an office, etc etc.

Following all the suggestions with interest, as my DS is very touch-sensitive with clothes and generally prefers a fleece blanket to anything, has Red Mist, needs repeated warnings of activities ending, is endlessly upset by the unfairness of everything, including the (just as yours) precisely fair chore rota, and I’ve suspected both autism (for us both), high sensitivity processing issues, and ADHD. You’re not alone

OP, I agree with everyone who has said it's not just hormones. This brilliant booklet explains so much about Sensory Processing and behaviour
www.falkirk.gov.uk/services/social-care/disabilities/docs/young-people/Making%20Sense%20of%20Sensory%20Behaviour.pdf?

Do make an appt with your GP, but initially don't have your son there.
Have a list of all the concerns you have and particularly emphasise anything he does which is markedly different to his age peers.

The diagnostic process can be a very long one, don't be fobbed off.