To think this is more than hormones with DS?

[MiaThermopolis]

Quick background: DS1 is 10. Eldest of 4 DC. He's a 'gifted' child acedemically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

The issue is his behaviour/temper at home. For the last 12-18months it seems to be getting worse.

Examples: All DC have a daily tick list - a couple of chores along with the standard 'get up, get dressed, make bed' etc. Chores are on a rota so everyone has the same number of 'set up breakfast' 'empty dishwasher' 'do laundry' etc. it is completely fair and equal. Yet every time we tell DS to get on with his list he growls, huffs, scowls that its not fair. if he then doesnt do it and we ask him again to get on with it he starts screaming in our faces 'I'M DOING IT!' (when he's clearly not) or 'I DONT WANT TO!' etc.

He reacts this way to being asked to do anything that may consitute a 'job' or 'chore'.

Once he's in a temper about something he will then scream at anyone and everyone. For example if one of the other DCs come to ask me a question he will scream 'I DONT CARE!' at them or 'SHUT UP'.

We have a clearly laid out set of consequences - first they loose a token from their reward tube, then screens are removed for the day, then its go to bed early. we are very consistant with this.

It's like a red mist desends and he cannot calm down once something has set him off and he can wizz through all those consequences in minutes as he seems not to hear us or will not respond to us asking him to leave the room to calm down.

He has his own room which we have sorted with him to make it a nice private space and have tried to encourage him to take a break up there when he feels angry but once the red mist descends he wont go.

He can also be violent, hitting walls, slamming doors, growling and screaming in the other DCs faces. he will also lash out has his siblings.

DH and I are at our wits end with it. we are doing all the 'right' things - he gets one on one time with us, he has his own room, he has clear boundaries and consequences but nothing seems to be improving this.

Yet in between he is the sweetest, cleverest, most interesting boy. we joke often that he would be a perfect only child (as a lot of anger starts with his siblings and the perceived 'not fair' devision of work). When we have him on his own he is an absolute delight.

I spoke to his teacher who said it is likely to be hormones and puberty starting but part of me is wondering could it be signs that he has some level of autism? anyone had similar and successfully navigated it?

Help please!!

rosie have just googled and this is the basic description: Pathological demand avoidance (PDA) is a profile that describes those whose main characteristic is to avoid everyday demands and expectations to an extreme extent.....yep that sounds pretty spot on! will do some more reading, thank you.

My 7 year old DS1 sounds like your DS. He's just been diagnosed with L1 autism (Asperger's). Lots of the things you describe are autistic traits, including being gifted.

Also, follow the Autism Discussion Page on Facebook. He's just done a series on PDA and how to handle it. He's a fabulous resource.

Did this behaviour start to escalate around 8yo?

That is usually the time those who are developing atypically socially and emotionally really start to show behaviours. It's because of the stage of development being different form 7 and their peers tend to move on.

That would also be a red flag.

@MiaThermopolis

he is very emotionally young for his age in a lot of ways - he loves his reward scheme, named it himself and designed a logo for his 'house'. the games he plays on his tablet/playstation are crash bandicoot/harry potter/collect dragon eggs. he has no interest in 'teeenage' games.

We do have a zzero tolerance and the consequences are laid out but he genuinely seems to get into a state where nothing can penetrate and he doesnt even hear that he's losing privilledges. after he's calmed down he can be completely suprised to learn that he's lost them - he has no recollection.

the tablet is his favourite thing and staying up late and we do use these aas his consequences but it really does seem beyond him to controlthese outbursts.

Sounds like meltdown more than tantrum. He's not in control. He cannot help it.

But PDA isn't something that just appears - PDA children display those traits even when they are very small. The OP has explained that this behaviour has developed over the last 18 months, which would rule out PDA. The behaviours may be similar, but not the cause.

Fyzz's post sounds spot on to me.

he's always been prone to 'temper tantrums' but i never looked for them to be more than that until it's continued past the age where temper tantrums to that level would be expected.

Yes it all started to escalate around age 8 and is getting more explosive.

just re-read fyzz's post - please see my clarification on the chores, it really isnt that much per day. he has an hour up after the younger ones have gone to bed and then he needs to be in his room - lego/reading but can go to bed when he chooses - he is normally asleep with a book on his nose by 10pm. I tried to give more freedom on when things got done - the result was that nothing got done!!

I would say yes to asynchronous development and twice exceptional (2e) I think you will find both familiar. My ds was diagnosed 2e with pda tendencies. Once the red mist descends you can't reason and nothing will go in, they genuinely can't control it so you just have to ride it out, let them know you're there if that seems appropriate. Empathise with the dislike of the chore, but reiterate that it still needs to be done or ask them for an alternate approach, if they are still in a fit state to listen. But it is very hard to stay level when they explode. The Explosive child is recommended by a lot of SEN parents. Also possible look up PACE (playfulness, acceptance, curiosity, empathy) as a method for dealing with the outbursts? Don't be scared/put off by the fact the books all talk about childhood trauma it can be a useful set of techniques regardless of why your child is unhappy. Good luck.

You seem to be acknowledging that the schedule and the consequences aren't working but yet you're rigidly sticking to them. It's time to rethink.
As PPs have said, your DS is older than the others so if you're concerned about the younger DCs thinking you're rewarding bad behaviour, just stress that DS is older so has different parameters.
Then, you need to work out what those parameters are.

Read 'Get Out of My Life ... but first take Me and Alex into Town'. It has excellent strategies on de-escalating and on recognising when the argument and the drama is the point for teens and pre-teens because it extends contact and let's them avoid the task they don't want to do.
If you can, take time with him when he's doing the chores so pop into his room, sit and chat with him whilst he's tidying. Constant reassurance that he's older so getting time with you that's different from his siblings but also that even though he's getting older he's still your child and you love and support him.

susans i can accept that they consequences we have dont work but no idea what to replace them with hence asking for help. but i need a fairly strict routine/schedule - we are a busy household of 6, it's not possible for people to make their own timescales as it impacts on everyone else.

I have ordered the explosive child and will spend some time researching the suggested possible dx.

Mine is 2e with ASD (Aspergers/L1 autism) and I think your DS could be on the spectrum, OP. I think it's worth looking into.

Things to try.

Visual timetable.

Changing demands to choices "do you want to do dishwasher first or tidy your room"

Don't try and enforce consequences when he's angry. Have an agreed way out. So when you feel X, do this. Well talk after. Then he can do whatever.

Use 5 point scale for emotions - it's brilliant.

Dawn Heubner books from amazon "what to do when you ....."

The big book of feelings he completes himself is great for him to recognise when he's feeling angry, sad, happy. What makes him feel that way. What he can do when he's angry etc.

And movement breaks. Lots of children benefit from getting up and down lots and when you have a child who likes to sit it can compound the situation.

I see this behaviour in my oldest DS, and it coincided with being 10/11. He will still resist chores to the max, that’s just typical teenage behaviour and he can kick off properly too.
What particularly resonates is the whizzing through consequences at a rate of knots, it doesn’t sink in or he is too angry to care.
TBH I wouldn’t want to get straight into a list of chores when I woke up, it sounds like he is feeling pressured on that aspect.
Teenagers are notoriously lazy and it’s hard work getting them to do household jobs (or mine are anyway!).

But he can control himself well at school?

Why not expect more self control at home?

I don't think the chores are too much. Making beds, opening curtains, instrument practice are not chores, it's just daily living. Ditto keeping your bedroom tidy and looking after pets.

@BackwardsGoing

I don't think the chores are too much. Making beds, opening curtains, instrument practice are not chores, it's just daily living. Ditto keeping your bedroom tidy and looking after pets.

Yes because lots of six or eight year olds do their own laundry,,or however old the youngest is,

An eight year old is perfectly capable of putting clothes in a machine and programming it. These are the kids who can operate a tablet or smart tv without even thinking about it.

Sounds just like my (now 14 year old) DD, a few years back.

We had the same... do well at school, polite, well behaved, but, would have these episodes at home where the red mist would descend, often about the most minor of things. It was bad, to the point where I was hit a numbers of times (I’m only 5’ 4” and she was as tall as me in Y6).

I read the Explosive Child ... I found it really helpful. She went for hypnotherapy, which was really good .. just the way the hypnotherapist explained how the brain works, and why she was using certain behaviours - I would highly recommend it,

What worked for us, was taking everything down a level, and getting rid of the conflict. There are actions, and there are consequences ... there was no shouting, or arguing. We talked a lot, especially after a meltdown - no child wants to feel out control like that, so we would talk about other ways of dealing with things. I needed to learn how to change my behaviour, to let go of some of the control .... work out which hills are to die on.

She’s 14 now, we have a great relationship, if she’s feeling a bit emotional we talk about it ... if she wants to be left alone I leave her alone. She’s doing well at school, and is mostly good company ... as I often say to my husband “if the biggest problem my 14 year old is giving me, is that she stomps off to her room occasionally, we are not doing to bad”

When she was at the peak of her challenging behaviour I looked it all up PDD, ADHD, ASD ... but really she just needed some space, she needed to learn some language to express her feelings, the knowledge that I was on her side, and some tactics to deal with feelings when she was overwhelmed.

I didn't say you didn't need a schedule at all. I suggested how you could work with and support him through it. I do think you'd benefit from 'Get Out of My Life'. I found it more helpful than the explosive child for DCs over 10.

Could it be Pathological Demand Avoidance disorder?

OP, I literally could have written this post about myself! I too, have 4sc and my eldest, ds1 is exactly the same. Academic, non sporty, a few friends, and meltdowns. And my
Ds2 , aged 8 is likewise, v different from his elder brother. In DS1 case, we think he is mildly dyspraxic but some form of asd has crossed my mind at times. It's so reassuring to read about a family in parallel to mine! Wish we could pm!

There are many things that scream anxiety to me. I have an ASD child with extreme anxiety and giving jobs to do is a huge trigger.

I have 4 kids as well. 3 have struggled with temper and meltdowns at various points including one with asd. From my experience there is no point escalating consequences while they are in the midst of meltdown - it is actually counter productive. It is better to step away and reason with them once they are calmed down. In term of chores, maybe he is a different type of personality. Eg. Not everyone is a system person. My son is disorganised so I find it easier to grab him to do a chore when he's not busy or he's in the kitchen anyway. Just suggesting this as maybe he's not either so something else might work better. We also do tidying up time at certain points all together so it's harder for them to slack off and then we do something fun together.

You have kids of 6, 8, 10 doing laundry, sweeping and hoovering on a regular basis? As well as making beds, opening curtains, prepping dinner, laying the table, dishwasher, tidying stair clutter, feeding pets... Wow.

That IS a lot. I realise it’s on a rota system. Even on a rota system it really is a lot, for pre teenage kids.

That said, the “out of control” thing you describe doesn’t sound NT. (DD is like this and she is not NT). So that may well be a possibility. But he may also be reacting to the sheer level of demands. I bet none of his friends have to do anything like this amount, and he is becoming aware of that.