To think this is more than hormones with DS?

[MiaThermopolis]

Quick background: DS1 is 10. Eldest of 4 DC. He's a 'gifted' child acedemically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

The issue is his behaviour/temper at home. For the last 12-18months it seems to be getting worse.

Examples: All DC have a daily tick list - a couple of chores along with the standard 'get up, get dressed, make bed' etc. Chores are on a rota so everyone has the same number of 'set up breakfast' 'empty dishwasher' 'do laundry' etc. it is completely fair and equal. Yet every time we tell DS to get on with his list he growls, huffs, scowls that its not fair. if he then doesnt do it and we ask him again to get on with it he starts screaming in our faces 'I'M DOING IT!' (when he's clearly not) or 'I DONT WANT TO!' etc.

He reacts this way to being asked to do anything that may consitute a 'job' or 'chore'.

Once he's in a temper about something he will then scream at anyone and everyone. For example if one of the other DCs come to ask me a question he will scream 'I DONT CARE!' at them or 'SHUT UP'.

We have a clearly laid out set of consequences - first they loose a token from their reward tube, then screens are removed for the day, then its go to bed early. we are very consistant with this.

It's like a red mist desends and he cannot calm down once something has set him off and he can wizz through all those consequences in minutes as he seems not to hear us or will not respond to us asking him to leave the room to calm down.

He has his own room which we have sorted with him to make it a nice private space and have tried to encourage him to take a break up there when he feels angry but once the red mist descends he wont go.

He can also be violent, hitting walls, slamming doors, growling and screaming in the other DCs faces. he will also lash out has his siblings.

DH and I are at our wits end with it. we are doing all the 'right' things - he gets one on one time with us, he has his own room, he has clear boundaries and consequences but nothing seems to be improving this.

Yet in between he is the sweetest, cleverest, most interesting boy. we joke often that he would be a perfect only child (as a lot of anger starts with his siblings and the perceived 'not fair' devision of work). When we have him on his own he is an absolute delight.

I spoke to his teacher who said it is likely to be hormones and puberty starting but part of me is wondering could it be signs that he has some level of autism? anyone had similar and successfully navigated it?

Help please!!

Does he have any kind of schedule? Can you break the chores down a bit for him and make it very clear exactly where in the day the chores will be completed? That may make it easier for him than just having a list of chores to complete which may feel a bit daunting and if there is a clear daily timetable of where things are occurring it might also reduce some of the explosions in response to you needing to prompt and remind. Alternatively if he is struggling with the rigidity you could have a time by which each chore needs to be completed (Eg: make bed by 9am, tidy bedroom by 3pm) so that he can have a bit more control over when he’s going to build them into his day.

PS and your consistent reaction is teaching him a really good lesson so carry on, stressful though it is x

Some of this sounds similar to my DS (11). He was about to undergo an assessment with CAMHS earlier this year, but everything has been put on hold due to covid. Would suggest also looking at ASD/PDA

Thanks CoRhona

That wasn't ds 10. Hé always had a bit of a temper. He is now 19 and the kindest, gentlest young man. Can still get grumpy but no anger and acting out. It was hormonal in his case, he was over the worse of it by 13/14.

You say there is no problem other than behaviour and temper at home of a preteen, particularly related to household chores.

I think you need a clearer understanding of the triad of impairments that are seen in ASD and an understanding of how these will have been present before this point.

You also may benefit from reading up on asynchronous development and sensory issues in the academically 'gifted'.

DS2 is autistic but his diagnosis was not based on preteen anger or oppositional behaviour - at 14 he remains totally laid back (but could give Ghandi a run for his money on passive resistance).

Being academically able, not liking sports, having slightly geeky interests and disliking chores - ie being different from a stereotype of NT - is not the same as sharing diagnostic criteria of people with life long neurodiversity. Diagnosis is more of a presence of than absence of that views stereotypical NT as the norm.

Plus, even if your son were somehow diagnosed, how would this help him outside the home or help you to understand him given that you can do things differently in your home without a formal diagnosis?

Keepingon because i have much less sympathy with an NT child being difficult that i would with a SEND child struggling to cope. they are very different hence wanting to see if it sounded like a possibility to explore.

I've not heard of the asyncronous development in my reading up on giftedness so far so will have a look into that.

with regard to being able to do things differently at home - yes to a point but i have other children to consider so i dont want to give them any indication that behaving like an angry brat will get them special treatment. i can explain and treat differently if there is more of a reason behind it than 'stroppy-preteen'.

Ds same. In all honesty a dx doesn’t help much, and it’s extremely difficult to separate out giftedness from anything else. His dx is gifted (which wasn’t in question) adhd with asd traits. He was medicated for a while around the same age (vyvanse) which helped with slowing down the thoughts in his head long enough for him to express them, but in all honesty, it’s just time.
At 18, he’s completely lost the aggression and temper, and is an absolute delight. He’s funny, responsible, and takes amazing care of his friends.
10-15 was sketchy with hormones though

thank you to those who've shared their stories of similar children coming through this volatile stage (both those with and without dx) - that gives me hope!

Yes, asynchronous development is a thing with gifted children as a pp mentioned.
I would suggest talking to him and teaching him explicitly how to deal with this. So, sit down when calm, help him write a list of situations that trigger this sort of reaction, recognise early signs like tensing muscles, and of different possible strategies he could try (walk away, go scream into a pillow, count to 10, etc.). Leading by example is not enough sometimes.

Also, in my experience, kids who are more "thinking" than "moving/doing" don't necessarily recognise their physical needs well (such as needing to physically burn out energy or being hungry) so, if this is the case, think about this sort of thing in toddler terms, so make sure he is getting enough exercise/outdoors time even snacks,etc.

One of my kids is like this, for example he doesn't want to go out, even if it is to do something he likes, but once you get him to move/get outside, his mood improves no end and sometimes he even thanks you afterwards for making convincing him to do whatever it is.

I was reading that thinking asd.

My ds is autistic.

He may be highly sensitive or it may be asd or similar.

You'd need an assessment. I'd copy your post and speak to GP. Show them this. It always helps for them to see patterns of behaviour and that normal parenting techniques don't work and can make it worse.
That alongside the fact it's worked for your other 3.

Actually put all your posts into a list. They paint a good picture.

I reckon the teachers are right and this is just hormones and selfish kid mix, sorry op, he doesn’t want to do the chores, like many kids so he kicks off. Clearly the punishments don’t really bother him.

I’d bet good money if you put a harsh unexpected one in there he’d hear it immediately.

I have 2 autistic sons, both with radically different profiles. But they have both always been autistic.

In a medical sense DS2 is more autistic (he also has adhd and is academically gifted) but has never been difficult at home (school was a different matter). DS1 is 'less autistic' but couldn't cope with school at all and was very behaviourally challenging at home whilst selectively mute at school.

I have to do things differently whilst maintaining fairness. Imposing strict rules and timetables with DS1 causes conflict, not imposing strict rules and timetables with DS2 causes conflict. Boundaries remain the same for both (especially now they are both teens). DS1 is now a lovely young man and DS2 is on his way (still battling with the hormones that have turned him into a 5'11" smelly, hairy man in the last year).

Diagnosed autism still brings teenage challenges. You just don't get the relatively unproblematic years preceding it!

Potential Plus has stuff on asynchronous development and twice exceptionality.

I’d bet good money if you put a harsh unexpected one in there he’d hear it immediately.

Sorry but I think this is the last thing you should do. You already have a lot of rules and a punishment system and the whole thing is rigid. You need to encourage more communication and look into any SEN

You should be able to find OT type things around sensory regulation as well as being better able to recognise physical manifestations of feelings - I think it's something like how fast is my motor running - like increased heart rate, breathing, sweaty palms, raised voice and tone etc. Teach him explicitly how to recognise physical sensations and then how to regulate them - meditation, breathing exercises, proprioceptive exercises, therapeutic pressure etc.

Sorry if I was being too snippy earlier - I get annoyed if people assume autism = anger management issues.

@toastmeahotcrossbun

I’d bet good money if you put a harsh unexpected one in there he’d hear it immediately.

Sorry but I think this is the last thing you should do. You already have a lot of rules and a punishment system and the whole thing is rigid. You need to encourage more communication and look into any SEN

She’s done the communication it’s not working.

And she can look at sen but not exclusively. It’s unlikely to be that anyway, people need to stop jumping to that so quickly.

And yes, if she wants to know if the punishments don’t bother him and are now so routine that he deliberately ignores because he doesn’t give a shit, then throwing in a harsh and unexpected one will tell her all she needs to know. If he pauses and hears it right away, or if he just carries on with his red mist.

He's a 'gifted' child academically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

You describe my DS apart from the sport.
Always from starting school a model pupil but saved it all up for home.

I won't get into labelling behaviour as autistic, I think you just need a way to manage this phase (and don't forget the other Dc will be different when they reach the same age).
Yes to hormones and puberty.

I do wonder though as he is your eldest whether you might have a rethink about starting to treat him a little differently than the younger ones? Instead of the childish charts, rewards and punishments how about some recognition of his growing up and "seniority" in the pecking order so he doesn't have to be treated exactly the same as little ones? ? Perhaps let him have a say in what he does to help around the house and when he does things? Does he still have fixed bedtimes? I found that relaxing rules in areas of most conflict worked miracles. Compromise on both sides required.
It worked well for my DS - who incidentally is now a perfectly well adjusted, if geeky, 24 year old.

make bad, open curtains and do 10 minutes instrument practise. On a rota basis one will set breakfast, one empty the dishwasher, one feed the pets. In the evening one will set for dinner, one will help cook and one will feed the pets again. (DD2 is too little to be included yet, only 3!). and the affectionately named 'shit on the stairs' - basically put away anything of yours that i have found loose around the house and put on the stairs during the day. At the weekend they need to tidy their room, each do one load of laundry and again a rota of hoovering their playroom, cleaning out the pets and sweeping the kitchen floor

Also and it may not fit with your philosophy, but that is a lot of chores. I feel his pain at not only having to do those chores but do them on command.

Excellent post from fyzz there.

People really need to stop this oh it must be sen when a kid misbehaves. Most times it’s not. It’s just a kid throwing his weight around and testing his boundaries. If he was reacting this way over other stuff, I’d agree but it’s only when he’s asked to do a job or a chore that he does this, and let’s face it he has quite a few.

The kids feed the pets twice a day, set for dinner, set for breakfast, empty the dishwasher and they even have to help cook dinner every day . At the weekends they need to do all that, plus clean the pets, do their own laundry, Hoover the play room and sweep the kitchen floor. It isn’t a small amount for kids this age. The eldest is ten, the next one eight and I don’t know how young the third is, but younger than eight clearly.

It’s a lot. And he’s kicking off, many kids his age would.

make bad, open curtains and do 10 minutes instrument practise. On a rota basis one will set breakfast, one empty the dishwasher, one feed the pets.

I agree it's a lot and FWIW if I had to do 10 minutes instrument practice as soon as I got up I'd kick off myself. It does have a bit of a boot camp feel.

a few clarifications:

I promise it's not bootcamp! i'm just trying to be susinct in explaining! they dont do every single one of those each day, its rota'd between them, so a weekday's 'chores' would be:

Set up breakfast, make bed, open curtains (done while getting dressed). Instrument practise before lunch (in holidays) or choice of before or after school (term time). Then evening would be feed pets. In total this is 20-25 mins at the most.

the next day would be: empty dishwasher, make bed, curtains and instrument. then set up dinner table.

Saturday would add tidying bedroom and one load of laundry. (5 mins plus however long the bedroom takes)
Sunday would add sweep kitchen floor (5 mins)

I really dont think that is a chores overload?

I used chores as an example of what triggers the behaviour. he also reacts this way to his sister singing, anyone coming too near him, being told it's time to come off his tablet, being told it's bedtime, the other DCs not playing by his rules, if it's someone else's turn to choose and activity or boardgame.

I ABSOLUTELY do not associate bad behaviour with SEN. if it was just the anger I wouldn't even consider it. It is the anger combined with hislack of friendships, his obessive natures, his OTT logical approach to everything, his reaction to his sister singing or humming or making noise near him. It's just the anger/temper is the part that is impacting on the rest of us so is the main issue I need to try and address in some way.

he is very emotionally young for his age in a lot of ways - he loves his reward scheme, named it himself and designed a logo for his 'house'. the games he plays on his tablet/playstation are crash bandicoot/harry potter/collect dragon eggs. he has no interest in 'teeenage' games.

We do have a zzero tolerance and the consequences are laid out but he genuinely seems to get into a state where nothing can penetrate and he doesnt even hear that he's losing privilledges. after he's calmed down he can be completely suprised to learn that he's lost them - he has no recollection.

the tablet is his favourite thing and staying up late and we do use these aas his consequences but it really does seem beyond him to controlthese outbursts.

all 3 older DC were involved in the planning of the chore rota. it was designed to help stop arguments as they all wanted to help cook, or they would get in a fight if they all tried to get there own breakfast things at the same time etc. DS2 and DD1 both love it and like to be able to see what they have to do so it's not sprung on them. DS1 seems to simultaneously agree with it and think its a good idea while thinking its unreasonable that he cant play tablet all day.

Read about PDA, it displays differently to classical autism, and your post sounds like it could be that.

Rewards and punishments are exactly the wrong thing to do with PDA children.