To think this is more than hormones with DS?

[MiaThermopolis]

Quick background: DS1 is 10. Eldest of 4 DC. He's a 'gifted' child acedemically - scoring over 95% in 11+ practice tests etc. He is highly logical with a huge 'justice chip' and obessed with things being 'fair'. Avid reader, robotics, lego and nature/animals. no interest in any sport. Good healthy balanced diet. School say he is polite, helpful, well mannered as do other parents when he has gone to play.

The issue is his behaviour/temper at home. For the last 12-18months it seems to be getting worse.

Examples: All DC have a daily tick list - a couple of chores along with the standard 'get up, get dressed, make bed' etc. Chores are on a rota so everyone has the same number of 'set up breakfast' 'empty dishwasher' 'do laundry' etc. it is completely fair and equal. Yet every time we tell DS to get on with his list he growls, huffs, scowls that its not fair. if he then doesnt do it and we ask him again to get on with it he starts screaming in our faces 'I'M DOING IT!' (when he's clearly not) or 'I DONT WANT TO!' etc.

He reacts this way to being asked to do anything that may consitute a 'job' or 'chore'.

Once he's in a temper about something he will then scream at anyone and everyone. For example if one of the other DCs come to ask me a question he will scream 'I DONT CARE!' at them or 'SHUT UP'.

We have a clearly laid out set of consequences - first they loose a token from their reward tube, then screens are removed for the day, then its go to bed early. we are very consistant with this.

It's like a red mist desends and he cannot calm down once something has set him off and he can wizz through all those consequences in minutes as he seems not to hear us or will not respond to us asking him to leave the room to calm down.

He has his own room which we have sorted with him to make it a nice private space and have tried to encourage him to take a break up there when he feels angry but once the red mist descends he wont go.

He can also be violent, hitting walls, slamming doors, growling and screaming in the other DCs faces. he will also lash out has his siblings.

DH and I are at our wits end with it. we are doing all the 'right' things - he gets one on one time with us, he has his own room, he has clear boundaries and consequences but nothing seems to be improving this.

Yet in between he is the sweetest, cleverest, most interesting boy. we joke often that he would be a perfect only child (as a lot of anger starts with his siblings and the perceived 'not fair' devision of work). When we have him on his own he is an absolute delight.

I spoke to his teacher who said it is likely to be hormones and puberty starting but part of me is wondering could it be signs that he has some level of autism? anyone had similar and successfully navigated it?

Help please!!

Is he happy as long as something is happening on his terms ? - yes

Does he have difficulty turn taking ? - yes

Does he mimic how his siblings play or is it his way ? wants it to be his way.

Does he play imaginatively ? he plays acurately, so he creates habitats for his animal cuddly toys for example. gets annoyed if someone wants to bring in a toy that doesnt 'fit' with his theme.

Does he need warning that an activity is stopping or he is moving on to do something else ? yes, several over a good 15 minutes ideally.

How sensory is he ? You mentioned hair and clothes. Nails cutting ? Etc - he reacts very strongly to any small knock or cut. he likes to walk around wrapped in a fleecy blanket rather than wear a jumper. he loves cuddles with DH and I when no-one else is around.

its so hard to stay calm and not react but i'm really trying as i know it only fans the flames and he doesnt really hear me anyway.

Sounds like a kid who doesn’t want to be cleaning floors at 10 years old. Can’t say I blame him.

@Noteventhebestdrummer most children with ASD/PDA are 'masking' at school. They're trying their hardest to get through the day without getting into trouble. It falls apart for the majority of these children when they get home, because they feel safe and are no longer masking. This can look like refusal, tantrums, crying, shouting etc. I hope this gives you an understanding of how a non-NT child operates.

OP, we had to pay for DS1's assessment (it was around £1750) but it was worth it as we now have a report/diagnosis and lots of suggested reading etc. I'm hoping it leads to more support, although school have been very helpful most of the time. It's also emphasised the importance of giving him lots of downtime without demands. This helps him to recalibrate.

One more thing, if he does have Asperger's, he will struggle immensely with Executive Functioning. This means that things that seem basic, like chores, are actually really hard to remember to do, because it doesn't occur to you that you have to do them, and the steps involved can seem like a mountain to climb.

(Sorry - long!!)

Just re-read my post and forgot to mention the main bit ! DDs issues where down to anxiety. This is why the hypnotherapy, calm voices, learning to spot triggers, talking a lot ... really helped.

School were suggesting ASD at one point, as she struggled during unstructured time, but this was not what was happening. I can understand why they said it, and if I read ASD/PDD I could have matched her behaviour to a lot of those symptoms

We just found a new way to communicate, and she’s growing up, which has helped.

The way to raise children to become happy, competent adults is not through "zero tolerance", rigid chores and punishments and viewing them as "snowflakes" when they predictably refuse to get with your program!

What children need is connection and understanding. This is what sets them up for success and happiness in later life. This applies to all children, not just those with an autism diagnosis.

Intelligent children have a moral sensitivity, so maybe he can sense that there is something "unfair" in your attitude to your children, even though he's too young to properly articulate it.

I posted above that I could see lots of similarities with my DS.
One of the few things that continues into adulthood with him is that he does like to know what's happening and doesn't like changes of plan.

You say people are fixated about the chores. In your earlier post you implied that it was essential in a house of 4 children that they do more than in smaller families and yet later it becomes clear that you are enforcing them on principle.
I will not raise snowflakes! Kids need to learn how to do household tasks and my thought process is start them young so it becomes second nature
Chores divide MN every time between your own views and those who don't insist on chores.

I'm in the latter camp directly because I was brought up being made to do a huge burden of chores from an early age. When I left home I was amazed to find it was easier to keep on top on the jobs as I had fewer!
I never wanted that for my DC. I made sure they knew how to do all the chores from cleaning the bathroom to mowing the lawn to cooking a meal but I never made them do a list. I would pick a job and a time when I knew they were free and ask them to do a job.I ramped it up before they went to uni which was fine. Both adults now and perfectly house trained definitely not snowflakes.

I believe young children shouldn't have to do the same chores every day and most definitely not when they come home from school. That's when they are tired and hungry, have been on their best behaviour all day and need a break.
I know this isn't the only source of conflict but you could avoid it.
I do think tactics for dealing with hormonal teenagers can often be similar to toddlers.
With a three year old I wouldn't do or say something knowing it was likely to trigger a tantrum (and I never gave in to tantrums). I would always try to approach it differently.

fyzz it's both. with a bigger family it is essential that everyone helps out to keep on top of things. but i was raised doing no chores whatsoever and both my siblings and I struggle to keep our homes clean and tidy as we were never taught what is required. it is a real struggle for me to get all my housework done (i mean struggle to motivate myself, not that i'm using my DC to do my work for me). i dont want that for my DC. that said i want a balance which i think i've achieved with the level of work. 20 mins a day? thats not much to ask, they still have hours of free time each day.

changes of plan throw DS1 too, which is why he and I together came up with the rota to combat this for him. but it's only solved part of the problem.

4naan that is a very black and white idea. i prefer to balance understanding and connection with clear boundaries and consequences. the reason i've posted is to find ways to help DS who is struggling with reasonable requests/reasonable family interactions/reasonable sibling niggles. however they are children and i am the adult and their parent, so actually the do have to 'get with my programme' to a large extent.

The problem with pre-teens is that they start to rebel against the "they are children and I am the parent" approach. We have to find ways through which focus on the relationship and not on the approaches which worked for us before ("he has to understand", "zero tolerance", "I will not raise snowflakes", "there has to be a firm routine" etc)
It isn't easy, I know, I have a 12 year old who also hates chores or being parted from her screen.
I found this book quite helpful, and you might too especially as you reflected previously on your own upbringing and how it was affecting your parenting and your need to keep a clean and tidy house with all of the DC playing their part in it. You might find it interesting too?
www.waterstones.com/book/the-book-you-wish-your-parents-had-read-and-your-children-will-be-glad-that-you-did/philippa-perry/9780241250990

Honestly he sounds like standard pre-teen to me. I was like this at this age!

Way too much rigidity. "We have to have structure because we are a big family". I get this but you are focusing on the family need and not what he might need as an individual.

He is getting older and hormones will screw up his emotional regulation.

Give him outs - ways to come down when he's argued himself into a stupid place.

Let him do the chores when it suits him, with consequences if not done - dont be tempted to nag all day, either. Just impose the consequence quietly when it isnt done, & repeat.

Start removing some unnecessary battles. Hes getting older, don't create a battle over bed making, focus on the jobs that NEED doing. Why does a teenagers bed need making?

If he has to run laundry, make it his own. When his favourite teeshirt isnt clean, its his problem.

Give him a vent for anger/frustration. Punching bag in garage?

The thing is i just dont agree with the more modern approach of teens being allowed to dictate to the rest of the household. yes they are not children but they are not adults and final decisions about the running of the household must belong to the parents. (plus he's only 10! still a child!)

and i'm sorry but i will never have less that zero tolerance for violence.

there needs to be a firm routine, we have to be in the car to get to school at a certain time, we need to be at certain after school clubs (chosen by them, not me!) at a certain time. he can't pick and choose when he does stuff as there is limited time when we get back to school routine.

Don't think i keep a show home, FAR from it. part of the frustration is my house looks like a bomb has hit it at all times as no-one puts anything away. i promise i dont have stupidly high cleaning/tidying standards but it would be nice to see the floor occassionally!!

Again i feel the chores thing has taken off as the only issue, it isnt and the explosive behaviour has been getting worse since he was 7/8 so really not 'teen' age at all.

forget the chores for a minute. What do i do when he explodes and screams and shouts and lashes out at DD1 when she is singing?

What about when he lashes out at DS2 if he accidently knocks over a game DS1 has set up?

What about when I've given him several warnings that we need to do something/go somewhere and he freaks out that he didn't know, its not fair, i never told him etc etc.

honestly the chores rebellion is only one aspect of this. wish i hadn't used it as the example now!!

You've got 4 kids. This means that in a few years you will have 4 teenagers to parent. You need to drop the my way or the highway attitude tbh, or at least be open to communicating a lot more.
Honestly, the teens I've seen who are the most rebellious and problematic tend to be those with the parents who are rigid with too many rules.

Ok forgetting the chores.

What about when he lashes out at DS2 if he accidently knocks over a game DS1 has set up?
Make sure DS2 isn't allowed in DS1's room in future.
What about when I've given him several warnings that we need to do something/go somewhere and he freaks out that he didn't know, its not fair, i never told him etc etc.
As with any relationship don't try and discuss it at the time. Wait until later in the day when all is calm and have a discussion about it. Say you don't understand why he thinks you didn't warn him when you did. You know he likes to know in advance and how can we avoid this happening again.
What do i do when he explodes and screams and shouts and lashes out at DD1 when she is singing? Same. Talk about it later and try to find out why he thinks it upset him and how he thinks it can be avoided.

Honestly OP you will need to be more flexible and maybe lower your standards before you have four teens in the house or life will be one long battle.

Oh the play!

My ds loves Lego, train tracks etc. Needed complete sets of everything.

Would spend hours setting them up from pictures he'd seen etc. He has a photographic memory.

Never played!

The most playing he did was to recreate Thomas tank engine episodes with his Thomas trains.

The more you say the more I think you need to request an assessment.

When he explodes at noise, speak calmly, say it isn't acceptable to treat others like that, tell him he can retreat to his own space and enjoy quiet there (perhaps with headphones and his own music?).
This is something I have regularly from both of my children when one is tired, stressed, anxious etc. I also close the doors between them when one obviously needs peace.
They open then right back up again as soon as the stressed one has calmed down...and round we go again.
One has misophonia quite badly. The other gets anxious/stressed easily.
He used to slap his hand over people's mouths when he couldn't take it, so he's definitely come in since then

He sounds exactly like my son was at 10!
In my experience this doesn't sound like autism.
I remember being at a loss with Ds who would nearly explode with rage.
He grew out of it within a couple of years, so in our case it was definitely hormonal.
He's now 20 and at uni and is turning into a decent lad.
Good luck

The lashing out: DD does this.

In her case it often isn’t that particular thing that’s caused the lash out per se, it’s cumulative stress from all the demands or disappointments that have happened in the past hour (let’s say). Then the thing she lashes out at was the final straw.

So if he’s been asked to pick up his shoes, then to unload the dishwasher, then told he can’t have a biscuit... he may already be in quite a tense state from complying with those and will lash out when his sister sings something a bit annoying.

Also DD does find noise very annoying, despite being incredibly loud herself. Is your DS loud?

If he’s academic then school won’t be causing such an issue because he will love learning and love (most of) school. So it’s not a stressor for him. Playground time may be more of an issue though.

I think what you need is a combination of reducing the stressors/demands on him (this may include re thinking the chores...) and helping him to manage his reactions when something upsets him. I do a lot of deep breathing practice with DD to help her with this.

@MiaThermopolis

'What do i do when he explodes and screams and shouts and lashes out at DD1 when she is singing?'

The number one ASD trait is noise sensitivity. It is unbearable to those with sensory issues.

'What about when I've given him several warnings that we need to do something/go somewhere and he freaks out that he didn't know, its not fair, i never told him etc etc.'

This is processing. He isn't able to turn what you are saying to him into anything meaningful, again, it's just noise.

I've mentioned a few times that he sounds like my Asperger's diagnosed DS1. This is genuinely something you need to investigate for your DS.

@MiaThermopolis

Also, please read this bit of my post again. Chores are a particular problem for children with ASD:

'One more thing, if he does have Asperger's, he will struggle immensely with Executive Functioning. This means that things that seem basic, like chores, are actually really hard to remember to do, because it doesn't occur to you that you have to do them, and the steps involved can seem like a mountain to climb.'

i am open to commincating with them. DH and i make a huge effort to give each DC one on one time with us, private chats etc. The problem is with DS1 it makes no difference. we have the chat, all fine, make changes to help him but its all to no avail when the red mist hits. it's why i want to sort this now before he is bigger than me and capable of doing much more damage.

BGirl thank you. i will be looking into it an dgetting a GP appt.

minipie he's quiet when not screaming. he will have a good long chat but only with a purpose or a point (DD1 talks to hear the sound of her own voice)

itsgettingweird thats exactly it! not playing, more making or creating. it has to be right and he gets very frustrated when its not. he loves school but with homework can get very upset if he gets something wrong, he takes it very personally.

BGirl will look at the Executive Functioning. thank you.

I have to say I very much agree with 4Naan's post.

And I agree with domesticslattern's rec of the Phillipa Perry book, it's really good.

Just reading the whole set up makes me feel a bit trapped, and I'm not a child expected to be in it. I get that it's busy with 4 kids, but it makes me feel teenagerish myself in an I DIDN'T ASK TO BE BORN type way and I'm in my 50s. If it makes me feel that way, maybe he's feeling a bit crowded and unheard and hassled. That's not meant to be unhelpful, it's just that he's a person too, not just a functioning or disfunctioning cog in the family you've chosen to have and run and that he's landed up in. Some of us don't like family living that much, and whilst he obviously needs to be considerate, maybe the whole set-up is pissing him off a bit.

@MiaThermopolis

BGirl will look at the Executive Functioning. thank you.

It's the executive function difficulties that I made my ds the jobs puzzle mentioned above because of.

He just can't figure out how to do stuff and that's what what him stressed. Not the doing.

My ds got 9-9 in gcse science.
He can explain complex scientific theories amazingly.

Have his bag in a different place and packing it like he does everyday is a huge problem. And it's purely because having to pick it up from somewhere else confuses his brain on what to do next. Think it's because with his photographic memory means he plans by seeing in his kind what he has to do.

tenth i promise that there is plenty of love, laughter, fun, stupidity, chilling out, messing around, freedom, open conversations, one on one time, adventure trips, quiet times, film nights, game time etc etc. but its not unreasonable surely to have to make your own bed and lay the table!