To think specialist schools can't always offer more than mainstream?

[BKCRMP]

My DD is in the naming schools stage of her EHCP. Mine of the specialist schools are particularily appropriate. Not ASD enough for the ASD schools, the SEMH schools not appropriate, doesn't have a learning disability for the generic schools. Wouldn't receive 1-1 within specialist. Would be expected to follow the class within specialist.

Or she can stay in mainstream with her dedicated 1-1 who can entirely differentiate her learning. Can keep her safe. OT and SALT support provided within school. She actually seems to be able to receive the more individualized, adaptive support that she needs within mainstream.

AIBU that specialists can't always provide more and for some children mainstream can actually give them more?

He can see other dc who are similar to him and can now see that he is not alone

This is the key reason I'm looking for specialist provision for my eldest DD at the moment - she's desperate to fit in (and was adamant she wanted to stay in mainstream) but her mental health has really suffered from being the 'odd one out' as opposed to being around pupils with a range of SEN and embracing her divergence.

@LonginesPrime he's honestly a different dc. I hope you get sorted. The specialist school takes time to wipe the slate clean and lay down the foundations to get your dc into a position where they are happy and willing to learn. Mainstream really just tried to control his behaviour.

Almost like a pyramid with the foundations at the bottom. A dc has to feel safe, welcome, accepted, happy to be in the right frame of mind to learn. This is what his school has done and does with every dc they have.

The last thing I was concerned about was how he was developing academically when he was self harming and couldn't manage 2 hours in school. He was 5/6 at the time and was absolutely heartbreaking

I couldn't recommend his school enough, they have changed his life

@hiredandsqueak I've been caught out by that. We've been forcing her to attend because we still can physically get her there but LA have taken that to mean she can cope better than she is

@LupinsNotLilys I did realise recently I have no real clue how she is doing academically (apart from being a winter born and still being in 30-50 months on several ELG) because it just hasn't been a priority. any learning has been a bonus this year

@BKCRMP I don't regret not sending dd to the named school because I believe it would have done more harm than good. I got paid £2000 in compensation more or less by the LA for failing to provide a tutor whilst dd didn't attend school and LGO forced them to provide a tutor whilst we waited for Tribunal as well. I do pursue them relentlessly because our LA seem to believe the law is optional which infuriates me.

OP it sounds as though your DD is at best, being "contained" in school. She is not being educated. I am deeply concerned that she is ever in a position at age 5 of needing 3:1.

I would say without a doubt from your description that she needs a specialist setting. More specifically, she needs a specialist setting that can focus entirely on her communication, and teach her about joint attention (attending to something someone else wants her to do, at a time of their choosing). These are the fundamental cornerstones of education and unless she is taught joint attention any learning will be incidental. You'll probably see her running around from activity to activity with a TA trailing in her wake, trying to keep her safe and those around her safe. This is firefighting and not teaching her the fundamental skills she needs to progress.

I would be looking for a specialist school that can teach joint attention and contingent responding in a non-aversive, positive way, probably using autism specific methods. Demand avoidant behaviour is usually rooted in anxiety and dysregulation. She doesn't sound like she benefits from the mainstream peer group. I would want her to be somewhere that they really understand and can directly teach the fundamentals of communication, while she is still young enough that years of education haven't passed her by.

Adding: caveats, this suggestion is based on your description only. But it does sound like mainstream isn't working.

[quote BKCRMP]@LupinsNotLilys I did realise recently I have no real clue how she is doing academically (apart from being a winter born and still being in 30-50 months on several ELG) because it just hasn't been a priority. any learning has been a bonus this year[/quote]
Have a ponder on this.

She's said to be too academically able for special school.

Right now she's 30-50 in elg. So probably lower end of of the spectrum but lots of children have delayed learning.

Each day the other year 1s are learning. Each day they are moving further ahead.

Your dd isn't yet able to access the curriculum provided or adapted for her as she cannot manage the environment.

Your dd isn't currently making progress.

Do you think that will change in this setting? Do you think she'll manage to tolerate the environment and what do you think she needs for this to happen?

If not what do you think needs to change for her?

Because what happens in 2 years if she has made no academic progress and is now 2-3 years behind. She'll be at the right level academically for SS but have missed years of learning opportunities and also of enjoying and be fitting from the environment.

None of us know your dd and you know her best.

But I think it's good you can speak to lots of us with send children have have seen all sorts!

La often say "too academic for x setting" but it isn't that black and white and they often make statements that match the places available and funding too.

And remember it's fluid. Getting the environment right and her learning to be able to learn means she could switch to MS in a few years, or a specialist asd setting that is academic.

Just find what's right for her now. For infant school.

Bwana yes! Joint attention is really important.

Just had a flashback to the days when I'm pretend drinking tea or spreading toast at stage 2 - doing my best Oscar winning performance and waiting for ds to even notice I'm in the room

You need to think long term too; yes a teacher ‘should’ be able to differentiate her curriculum BUT it’s a rare mainstream teacher that has had deep training and experience in every type of SEN need and can do this in any meaningful kind of way.

I had a child in my Year 3 class this year with a very specific medical condition that had led to severe led global delay. I spent hours and hours writing a curriculum for her - she was working around the 18-24 month mark depending on area, and had zero speech or motor skills to manage signing - but it became very clear that I, like her preceding teachers, was doing her a disservice because of my lack of specialist understanding.

So YANBU OP, but please do carefully review her provision at each annual review meeting. Her needs will change, her teachers will change and - sadly - the school’s financial position will change (already what schools pay for 1:1 support is nowhere near covered by EHCP funding).

It depends on the DC and how severe the learning disability is.
My DS was in mainstream preschool niece school with a 1to1.
He is smart but his emotional regulation is all over the place, he won't follow rules or except losing a game or share, sometimes I think the noise levels are hell for him he comes out frazzled.

Meant now in mainstream school.

A specialist school can make a huge difference, we've had a 2-3 year battle to get a diagnosis and placement for our dd, she is demand avoidant along with a autism dx, she was only managing a 3hr day at school with only 39mins max in the classroom on a good day but not actually doing any work.
She started a specialist placement at a private school funded by the lea as it is the most appropriate for her and the nearest alternative was 45mins+ travel each way, this school has made a huge difference, she has a 1:1 teacher not ta, she is interacting with other pupils she has done more work in a the few weeks she was there before the hols than she has done the rest of the school year and she Wants to go to school! Her old school was "coping" but she's thriving as this setting, so keep looking for the right place for them its worth it

Thanks @LupinsNotLilys!

I think it depends on the child's needs.

My son moved to a Speech and Language Unit and what was provided there is impossible in mainstream.

If your daughter is coping in mainstream with support then that's great. Things like the travel times to specialist provision can be difficult if it's a long way from home.

There are positives and negatives for both, I think you just have to go by your child.

If a child is really struggling academically in mainstream despite support, it can be such a relief for them to get to specialist provision and be able to learn in a way that's right for them.

All the best to you and you daughter.

Our DS previous school said "sometimes he needs 2:1" but that was because they were ignoring his EHCP, giving him a revolving door of untrained TAs, restraining him, telling him off for things he couldn't help, and were basically afraid of him.
He's had almost full time holiday club with about 20 other children, run by an experienced SEN TA and he's not had 1:1 all that time except for about two half days when he's been agitated. It has been fairly low demand but he's done almost all the adult directed activities.

I'm definitely going to be a lot more digging. I'm hoping visits will be a lot easier in September too.

I do think a lot of my feelings are that I know she is SAFE at school where she is and she isn't restrained or excluded all the time. There is an understanding that her behaviour is due to unmet needs. The fear is that she will be somewhere who doesn't understand that or do use extreme restraint.

Calm is so important for her.

@LupinsNotLilys

I can only comment on my experience op

It became very quickly apparent once my Ds started reception that he was finding it very difficult to cope with demands of mainstream school life. Prior to this he had spent 18 months in the schools pre school with no concerns. I desperately wanted him to stay in this mainstream school as it's a wonderful village school. The school head was fantastic. Provided 1:1 support. Paid for behavioural support workers. Ed psy report. Referred to Cyps. Adapted timetable for Ds. Let him have a reduced timetable (sometimes only 2 hours a day and even that was sometimes unmanageable for him). We begged for extra funding from county, eventually got emergency funding (after threatening legal action) we got the highest tier while we went through the EHCP process. School paid for Ds to attend a private sen nursery while EHCP was processed. School even paid for autism trained staff to come into school to try and help him integrate/cope. I couldn't have asked for more from the headteacher.

During this time my Ds was very disregulated. Any friendships made in pre school we're now hanging by a thread and he chose to play alone. He was self harming and became very unpredictable and a danger to others in school, throwing items when he became disregulated etc. It very very quickly snowballed. And I mean over a few months. He was excluded twice and the head warned that he was at risk of permanent exclusion.

Long story short is that the school said they could no longer cope with his needs. Funds ran out and all local mainstream schools said they wouldn't be able to manage him either. My only choice was going to be home ed or a specialist school. Nearest specialist school is 20 miles away.

I was apprehensive and actually felt I'd really let my Ds down as I knew he would have to attend a special school. Let me tell you....

The difference in him is astronomical. He's like the little happy, carefree boy he was in pre school. He enjoys school. He smiles in school now. He has friends. He feels safe. He knows the boundaries. He can see other dc who are similar to him and can now see that he is not alone, he is not naughty, he is not a bad boy like he said he was. He is thriving and he is also learning now. He wasn't learning in mainstream. In mainstream it was very much about controlling his behaviour.

Because the staff in a special school are trained to deal with a huge range of dc with perplex needs they are just fantastic. My Ds doesn't always receive 1:1 now because now he doesn't need it. The staff don't need to give him that in the environment he is in. There is still usually 3-4 staff per 5 dc so if my Ds needs additional support for something, it is available

Don't write off other schools like I did. My hand was forced and I'm glad it was. It was without doubt the best thing for my Ds.

FWIW he's been diagnosed with autism and adhd. There was a time he couldn't handle 2 hours in mainstream with 2:1 support. He now does full days (pre covid) and he doesn't self harm anymore, he's happy and he's learning. I wish you the very best op, go and look at other schools, find out what you need to. You may even be able to get hold of a parent Governor from one of the special schools and speak to them directly?

Sorry for the epic post... good luck op

This is almost identical to my experience.

Ds is so happy now. He was badly affected by seeing he was different and now he's part of a gang. Different is normal.

I've also found we did SO much fighting for provision in the EHCP for mainstream like a lot of the posts up thread but the second he hit specialist, we've never had to. They provide everything and more, it's all a non issue. School is school and they get on with it. We have home and everyone is happy. I never want to go back to quoting the law at poor MS teachers who are only doing the best but don't have the skills for our children.

@BKCRMP

I'm definitely going to be a lot more digging. I'm hoping visits will be a lot easier in September too.

I do think a lot of my feelings are that I know she is SAFE at school where she is and she isn't restrained or excluded all the time. There is an understanding that her behaviour is due to unmet needs. The fear is that she will be somewhere who doesn't understand that or do use extreme restraint.

Calm is so important for her.

It's important to remember that a school setting SHOULD be meeting her needs so the issues aren't apparent. She sounds like she needs really specialist teachers in communication and be teaching her AAC and fast to reduce her frustrations.

It's really scary when the only environment is the one you know and you think everywhere else will be worse but honestly, I feel sick that I left my son in his MS school for so long after seeing what his SEN school can do. It's my biggest regret.

He is autistic and gifted academically but the demands of MS were too much. They dealt with him great until the demands got greater and he got bigger and then they were excluding him and restraining him. Just because they aren't doing it now for your DD, doesn't mean they won't if they need to.

After working in both mainstream and SEN, I can confidently say that every LEA is entirely different, each school, both mainstream and Sen is entirely differently set up and as each child is also different in their needs, no seeping statements can be made either way.

We have an extremely good set up; we take pupils who are relatively academically capable but the asd is a considerable learning barrier. We also take pupils without asd with moderate learning difficulties who thrive in the smaller classes, and were deeply unhappy in mainstream as their needs weren't understood nor met. They also were very aware of their "differences."

I also know of pupils with Amazing support in mainstream.

I know of LEAs where it feels like the options are very limited. Too many end up in PRUs where their primary need is autism.

My only criticism is that many children with sn need to learn independent learning, communication and study skills which are sometimes undermined by a 1:1 in mainstream classes. This is based on lots of research into autism and learning in the US and U.K. and what I've seen when pupils come to us. A main objective we often have is to foster independence, but within smaller group settings.

Sometimes pupils with autism find the busy mainstream classroom and kids too overwhelming and anxiety can be a huge issue, often coming out in challenging behaviour. That's when even the best mainstream provision can't help; they simply need to be in an entirely different environment, less busy, noisy, fewer people etc.

@BKCRMP

I'm definitely going to be a lot more digging. I'm hoping visits will be a lot easier in September too.

I do think a lot of my feelings are that I know she is SAFE at school where she is and she isn't restrained or excluded all the time. There is an understanding that her behaviour is due to unmet needs. The fear is that she will be somewhere who doesn't understand that or do use extreme restraint.

Calm is so important for her.

From experience (I work in the field!) generally MS are more likely to use restraint that special schools.

This is for a variety of reasons but generally it's because in special schools or the right school the kids are more regulated and so the behaviours are less. And less running off and often more secure settings so even if they run they can't get anywhere!

My DD has demand avoidant ASD. She was diagnosed at 8 around about the time of her first exclusion. Permanent exclusion in year 5 as even with 1:1 TA the school were fire fighting and not helping her manage her behaviour. She went to a SEMH school for one year. It broke our hearts at the time but she learnt so much about coping and resilience there. She wanted to go back to MS as the SEMH didn’t have the range of academic subjects available. She is doing realty well with a fantastic package of support but the SEMH school gave her what she needed at the time and it was a positive move. Really tough for ASD children who are average or above academic ability. There is no provision and SEMH has become an ASD school through lack of an alternative.

Also consider if school management or attitude changes. DD’s head was all sweetness and light until year 5. Seems a common time manage out or exclude in time for SATS.

@windyautumn My experience mirrors yours. Dd goes to her independent specialist school, they do what needs to be done and she comes home happy and life at home is stress free. Gone are the constant battles, gone are all the educating the school and propping them up so they could make a hash of supporting dd. There is no battle for even a tiny increase or change in support instead school will ring say they have noticed X and so have done Y to support. It makes a world of difference to not only dd but also our life at home.

[quote hiredandsqueak]@windyautumn My experience mirrors yours. Dd goes to her independent specialist school, they do what needs to be done and she comes home happy and life at home is stress free. Gone are the constant battles, gone are all the educating the school and propping them up so they could make a hash of supporting dd. There is no battle for even a tiny increase or change in support instead school will ring say they have noticed X and so have done Y to support. It makes a world of difference to not only dd but also our life at home.[/quote]
Yes - I hadn't really anticipated that bit - that school working would mean we'd all get our life back! Tbh - I kind of forget he's got an EHCP. The school are more on it than me and tell me what's working or not, what needs to be updated etc. I go to work and don't worry anymore. He's happy, has friends and is thriving socially and academically (which everyone said he wouldn't in SS) - can't really ask for more.

That said - its true not all schools work for all children!