To think specialist schools can't always offer more than mainstream?

[BKCRMP]

My DD is in the naming schools stage of her EHCP. Mine of the specialist schools are particularily appropriate. Not ASD enough for the ASD schools, the SEMH schools not appropriate, doesn't have a learning disability for the generic schools. Wouldn't receive 1-1 within specialist. Would be expected to follow the class within specialist.

Or she can stay in mainstream with her dedicated 1-1 who can entirely differentiate her learning. Can keep her safe. OT and SALT support provided within school. She actually seems to be able to receive the more individualized, adaptive support that she needs within mainstream.

AIBU that specialists can't always provide more and for some children mainstream can actually give them more?

@1Morewineplease apart from the odd bit of number work I don't think she has done any actual learning in months.

@Onlyonewayout all our local provision seems to be ASD primary need or complex difficulties. Her ASD is secondary need and her difficulties are too complex so the ASD schools are saying no.

I feel a bit like there's no suitable school so she is just going to school to be kept safe and managed and is any learning or peer interaction happens that's a bonus :/

Yes she probably needs 2:1 a few times a week. She's also been in throughout so hasn't missed any school and the school did their entire Rota and scheduling around her.

Generally if she leaves the classroom the aim is she goes to her safe place. Often it means her 1-1 ends up on a hunt around school looking for her.

Have the specialist schools seen her plan? I’m surprised complex needs would say no. Have you been able to see any schools?

Have you looked at the non maintained special schools and ones in neighbouring authorities?

@Onlyonewayout they have. It's mainly due to the fact that despite being complex needs they think she's too academically capable and it's very boy dominated. She's too nervous of men/boys so it's not a suitable peer group for her. SEMH is out for the same reason.

@MillieEpple I have. Our authority is surrounded by another so both use each other's schools. Once we reach the edge of their boundaries it's too much travel time.

When she needs 2:1/ 3:1 is that because they are physically managing her? As she gets bigger, do you trust them to be able to do that safely? Mainstream staff generally have very little experience of positive handling.

I'd not rule out settings for children with behaviour that challenges. I have 8 children in my class all of whom have previously displayed severely challenging behaviour- much of it related to extreme demand avoidance- and generally it is an incredibly calm place. Much more so than many mainstream classrooms. All of the children know that if anybody starts to get distressed the adults will deal with it quickly, calmly and safely using low arousal techniques- so they don't worry about it.

Not much help now but there are normally a few more options for girls after 7.
Is she managing to access suitable therapies at mainstream. It might work better if proper OT, SaLt is in place and if she went to some sort of animal therapy /farm school a couple of sessions a week. There are quite a few places that offer that. Its just knowing to ask for funding and tracking one down.

OP, I work for an LA in the SENDAR team and I would much rather pay more to support a young person to remain in mainstream if they can meet need. Give your plan co a ring and talk through your concerns.

@reefedsail it's more because she is a runner. In early years their building was seperate and they added more physical security to the building but she would still go out the fire doors. In year 1 She will be in the main building with a reception door she can open. They generally don't need to handle her as she will seek out somewhere to hide and then actually calms herself with a bit of space but she's so fast she has to have 2 of them and they still lose her. She has been violent in school but generally now they know better how to manage her to avoid it.

I have an appointment to visit one but they've warned already they don't think they are suitable.

I felt the same and DS was at a mainstream school for 4 years. I do think it was good for him to have the 1-1 and he was happy. As the years went by though he was less included, not that I think that bothered him at all. In fact even in year 1 he was excluded more than necessary as the class teacher was a total cow who thought the other children had far too many important things to be doing (at the age of 5) to spend literally 5 minutes in small groups a couple of times a week doing group activities with my son. It also wasn't so great in the last year when he had 4 different 1-1s, they just seemed to be using a couple of people who had spare time to "watch" him rather than do anything constructive. When he moved to a SEN school he was included in things he didn't have access to at mainstream and was just as happy there very quickly as the staff are all geared to working with special needs children. He doesn't have the 1-1 but there are on average 1 member of staff per 2 children, so they still all get a good amount of attention. Another bonus that I hadn't anticipated is it made life so much easier for me, as I'm not be asked to pick him up when he gets even slightly upset or feeling like he's not really welcome where he is, and the staff are much more understanding of everything and better able to deal with everything.

If mainstream are offering 1-1 and are very inclusive I'd give it a go. These things aren't awfully common in mainstream!

Nothing wrong with moving them to specialist later if it doesn't work out.

I think it entirely depends on the child. Integration is easier in primary. Special schools may be far, far better at secondary for many children.They can have peers, they can achieve and not be made to feel different. It depends on the school but keeping a child in school, managing complex behaviours, reducing exclusions, giving greater consistency and continuity can often be better in a special school.

Just seen your last post OP. My son is also a runner, was always worried about escape routes. This is another thing SEN schools are aware of and have experience in. Even on their outings which made me extremely nervous at first, I now feel he is in totally safe hands. I feel I can voice any concerns and they will be listened to and acted on. I didn't always feel that at the mainstream school.

How specific is her ehcp and did the ed. Psych give any recommendations? You may need a reassessment of need. Ipsea/sossen are fantastic.

My son is in mainstream, going into yr 5 (should be yr6), 1:1 at all times, 2:1 off site, slt, ot..... You can have a positive behaviour plan wrote into the ehcp saying exactly what staff are allowed to do and when/ how to escalate, training, techniques to be used etc. However, with the right support this should be used very rarely and minimally. I would think if she needs restraining regularly other needs aren't being met. That being said I know of many special schools that use isolation rooms and restraint too.

My son has made incredible progress, I love his ms school and I'm very grateful to them. I do not think his communication would have developed as well in a special school mainly because he wouldn't have had the communication models in the other children. If you group children together who cannot communicate/have similar needs how can you expect them to learn to communicate and especially communicate in the wider community when outside of that group?

I feel for you it's a very difficult decision and one which only you are best placed to make. Best of luck x

Dd attends independent specialist having attended mainstream with 1 to 1 support previously. What she gets in her specialist school that she didn't get in mainstream is an individual timetable specific to her interests and needs. OTs and SALTs in the classroom giving therapy and advising teachers. An environment that is kind to her sensory difficulties. Class sizes of no more than four pupils often only two. Therapies built into the lessons. ASD specific counselling and MH support. Psychiatrist attached to the school available if or when the need arises. No crowded corridors/classrooms/dining hall. Consideration of her as a whole and not purely seen as an academically able student. Consideration given to her mental health first rather than possible GCSE grades.
For us the specialist school is by far superior in terms of support than the support that dd got from any of the TAs even the ASD lead TA or teachers in mainstream. Some teachers really tried but the sheer numbers of students meant that the support they were able to offer wasn't enough or was the wrong support purely because of a lack of specialist knowledge and understanding.

If your daughter isn’t learning and making progress then maybe mainstream isn’t good enough for her.
Have you looked at specialist provision , eg spent a bit of time there?
Most specialist providers will have resident SaLT and OT providers.
Our nearest SLCN school offers lots of different specialists on site. Hence the higher ratio during learning time.
In our mainstream school we have employed 1:1 learning assistants but if that child goes to the specialist school , they’ll be assessed and put into a small class with no 1:1 provision unless it’s for a medical need.
It’s almost impossible to have a class of , say 12, where each child has 1:1provision. as the children would be classed with similar needs and the curriculum would be adjusted accordingly.

It’s a very sad fact that , often, SEN children face a very long commute to an educational provider.
It would be wonderful if all schools could accommodate, alas the reality of SEN provision is currently shite.
I really hope that your daughter finds the provision that she needs.

You should also look at independent specialist schools as well as maintained special/specialist schools as it is very different in the independent sector. In dd's school it's not unusual for a child to have 1 to 1support even in a class with two pupils with a SALT/OT in class alongside the tutor and maybe even a general support person. There isn't really class learning everyone learns to their own interests and ability so whilst dd might be in a class with two others they are unlikely to be studying the same thing as it will all be tailored individually to their needs.

If she's violent and controlling/manipulative towards her peers, she needs to be in a specialist school.

I'm going to try and get more to grips with some specialist providers, it's not been the easiest time to try and make decisions because viewing is very limited due to covid.

@Sayitagainwhydontyou She's not violent towards her peers. In 4 years of reception & her previous setting (so from age 1) we've had one incident of her hurting another child and the child at the time was scaring her. She generally just wants to be left alone to do her own thing and then she's happy as anything.

By controlling her peers it's in play so she absolutely can't hack being the follower in play, she has to lead it and be in charge.We think it's because of her communication issues more than anything. She's not manipulative.

My son is going into year 6 with a full time 1-1 in mainstream. It’s working fantastically for him.

We are stuck between a rock and hard place
For secondary. He needs the social and emotional side of a specialist school. He needs the academic side of mainstream. We have nothing inbetween the two. It’s a nightmare

We are trying to get our DS back into mainstream for slightly different but related reasons.
Again he'd have had no peer group in most SEMH settings, those within an hour were either older and much more violent or almost nonverbal. The MLD school that his previous mainstream school was desperate to move him to had 2 pupils in 11 years take GCSEs and about 5 move to mainstream for secondary. He's fully capable of some GCSEs (he's only going into Y3 but he's moving so fast with his maths in particular, learning chess, loves science, always asking what words mean). We would have been writing off his adult life aged 7.
We have yet to find the right mainstream though we have two possibilities.
I also feel like he's come out of his shell this summer with peers - he's been playing with TD (or mild ND and also in mainstream) peers which is a goal on his EHCP that his previous school just ignored. He's currently in a PRU and doing well in the small class size with mainstream curriculum, the main worry we have moving back to mainstream is if he can't cope in the larger more crowded class.

As somebody who teaches in a specialist school I totally agree with you, there is no one size fits all. For some children a special school is best, for others mainstream with support is perfect. It sounds like you’re happy with your daughters provision which is great

For us, SEN school is far superior because he gets to be in school normally without a 1:1 always there facilitating everything. He doesn't need it because the school meets his needs. He's much more independent as a result which means his life outcomes will be better.

Honestly....your description sounds very far away from a school that is meeting your child's needs and I get it as that's how we were a few years ago. Definitely explore all the options. Your child has a right to a full time, full curriculum which only the right setting will be able to provide.

@Sirzy we had similar, went with mainstream with 1 to 1 because dd is very intelligent (IQ of 160 plus) it was an unmitigated disaster not least because they saw her academic potential first and foremost and nothing else mattered. We tried, they tried (but couldn't forget the academic potential) and dd suffered dreadfully. LA then decided she should attend a maintained special school with tutors to teach the academics. Dd refused to attend and tbf that would have been worse than mainstream as she wouldn't have had a peer group. Now in independent specialist and very happy, they consider her mental health first and foremost so it's ok for her to say I want to coast in English because I find it stressful and just get a level 4 pass at GCSE when she was predicted 8/0 in mainstream. It's ok for her to say I am teaching myself Japanese can I be taught Japanese? (even if it's not on the subjects offered) because the school have another student interested and so have drafted in a tutor for next year.
I am under no illusion that she will get the 12 top grade GCSEs she was predicted (but she wouldn't have in mainstream either because the pressure and the anxiety it caused was crippling her) But she will leave with her mental health intact, a greater set of coping strategies and a better understanding of herself and her needs and enough GCSE's for the next stage and for me that is more than enough.

Do you mean special school or specialist as in independent specialist? Because you can actually look at both which may he,p you extend your search.

What is primary need?

Children all cope differently and respond differently. Some children need 1:1 in MS but are ok in special school because the setting is entirely different.

It may be that smaller school works for a few years to get her settled and tolerating education and she can switch back to MS for more academics when she's ready?

Or what about a MS with enhanced u it attached? Can be best of both worlds.

But it's worth bearing in mind that whilst SS are saying she's too academic it's rather a moot point as right now she isn't accessing education.

Not easy - have an autistic son. Trying to second guess the right place is soul destroying at time's.