To think specialist schools can't always offer more than mainstream?

[BKCRMP]

My DD is in the naming schools stage of her EHCP. Mine of the specialist schools are particularily appropriate. Not ASD enough for the ASD schools, the SEMH schools not appropriate, doesn't have a learning disability for the generic schools. Wouldn't receive 1-1 within specialist. Would be expected to follow the class within specialist.

Or she can stay in mainstream with her dedicated 1-1 who can entirely differentiate her learning. Can keep her safe. OT and SALT support provided within school. She actually seems to be able to receive the more individualized, adaptive support that she needs within mainstream.

AIBU that specialists can't always provide more and for some children mainstream can actually give them more?

@DorisDaisyMay if the EHCP specifies 1 to 1 then that is what the child must receive regardless of setting. The SENCO at dd's mainstream secondary thought that she too could choose to fit my dd's support around the learning support department allocation it took only one letter to the LA reminding them of their legal duty to meet the EHCP to the letter to get that altered. Ddhad 1 to 1 support for the whole time in school provided by the ASD lead TA and two more I chose. When SENCO told me that my insistence on having dd's support provided as per EHCP was meaning other children had lost support I told her it wasn't my problem but if she passed my contact details to the parents of children who weren't getting the support they should I would help them ensure that their EHCPs were fit for purpose and they too got the support they were entitled to. Funnily enough she didn't take up my offer.

@DorisDaisyMay oh god really? My dd has asd and is finishing primary this year. We had planned for her to go to a mainstream secondary and although I don’t think it’ll be smooth sailing I’m now a little worried it might be a disaster. Our two local Sen schools cater for complex special needs and her brother goes to one and it wouldn’t be suitable at all. Another school my dd felt wasn’t right. I’m very aware it could be a horrible ride. Though I’m banking on the small learning base.

@DorisDaisyMay are you saying that secondary schools choose to break the law?

@Onlyonewayout you need to ensure that the EHCP is specified and quantified in part F ensuring all needs are documented in part B and then you have to be well versed in the legal duty that surrounds an EHCP. You have to be prepared to educate schools around their responsibilities and be prepared to refuse to accept anything less than what is in the EHCP even when schools complain of lack of resources because fundamentally if they accepted the EHCP without sufficient funding to cover provision then they were pretty negligent and they need to take it up with LA tbh.

@drspouse schools do break the law when allowed to get away with it. Dds full support cost other pupils their support as SENCO told me herself. Unless parents have good EHCPs and knowledge of the law then children with SEN are screwed left right and centre IME

Doris interesting. My ds had his 1:1 in secondary where it was stated as a need. I agree they aim for greater independence but so do complex needs SS. It's the biggest aim for all children to equip them for adulthood in whatever capacity that requires.

It was having his 1:1 support and I out that allowed him to learn the skills needed to cope and only had it 8 hours a week in certain lessons by year 11.

Schools (well intimately LA) have a responsibility to provide what section F states. Perhaps worth reading Sendcop if you work in this field to know the law rather than school and la policy.

OP - would you be happy to post a general area (maybe county?). Maybe we could help you find some schools? There's often an odd setting that's not advertised (cost!) that may be suitable for your DD.

In my LA EHCP funding is allocated in banded brackets. The banding is decided solely on Section B.

In terms of funding, there is no relationship between what is written into Section B and Section F. Section F can be amazingly detailed and specific, but if Section B is mildly worded (which it often deliberately is) then the banding will be low and the funding will not cover Section F.

School has no leg to stand on other than to go through lengthy review to adjust Section B- which the LA will obviously be unwilling to do. Some parents are also understandably reluctant to make Section B read like enough of a horror story to get up the funding brackets.

Apologies if already suggested have you looked at resource bases attached to mainstream schools. Effectively the best of both. Smaller environment tailored to needs but with access to full mainstream learning at their level?

Have you looked into doing a split placement, so half the week in a specialist setting and half at mainstream? It doesn’t sound like she’s accessing the academic or social side of mainstream so I can see why the school doesn’t think they are meeting her needs. It could be a specialist setting with less children, less noise, more adults and a safer physical building would help.

I'm not arguing that schools shouldn't provide Section F, BTW, just explaining that funding is not necessarily given for it.

Most EHCP’s don’t specify 1:1 although they do specify a number of hours - which I was diligent to ensure.

When support staff are off sick they are not covered and so most Senco’s will then alter the provision on a scale of who needs it the most E.g. move x’s Ta from Drama and put them with Y in maths because Y’s usual support is off sick. Therefore X doesn’t get support that lesson.

There is a tension where parents (rightly so) are concerned with their child (individual) but the Senco is concerned with the needs of the cohort -(also rightly so). They are not magic and can only work with the resources and staff that they have available. Senco’s go into Sen because they want the best for their students and because they want inclusion to be a real thing not just lip service. But real things happen - staff get sick and the one who loses out is the child.
From my experience. Also I am talking about Sencondary and I should have read the thread better!

Designated bases, small groups and a protected environment are what I have seen in practise as the best environments for Sen students to thrive in mainstream.

@reefedsail Schools need to comply with the law and if they accept an EHCP without sufficient funding for the specified provision then frankly they have been negligent and others will suffer as a result of that negligence when a parent demands that the provision in F is provided as per the law.
Our LA issued dd's EHCP with very little funding I think it was about £2k. School were happy to take that knowing full well they couldn't have made the provision on that cost. I appealed and funding allocated to meet the provision at Tribunal was £49k.

You have to be prepared to educate schools around their responsibilities and be prepared to refuse to accept anything less than what is in the EHCP even when schools complain of lack of resources

This x1000000.

@reefedsail if the provision is specified and quantified in section f, the la banding is irrelevant. Have a look at either ipsea or sossen- complaining when provision isn't being made. The la are ultimately responsible for ensuring the provision you can start jr proceedings.

I think the whole culture of special schools is totally different to mainstream. I worked in one as part of my teacher training and it was really lovely compared to all the other schools ive worked at. Obviously every school is different but my experience of mainstream is that SEND pupils are very much an after thought.

I don't know enough about demand avoidant behaviours (even though, looking back, I think my eldest has mild tendencies in that direction); however given your little one's age, I wonder whether she would access more learning in a Montessori based environment. Do any of the potential schools use a Montessori approach?

I also wonder - without knowing anything about how such provision works - whether a 3 or 6 month intensive communication based placement, however achieved, could enable much more appropriate placement decisions to be made thereafter.

I'm a 1:1 TA in mainstream school. In all honesty from what you have described, it doesn't sound like a mainstream school is the best place for your dd. IME it will get harder and harder for her as she moves up the school. In a more appropriate setting, she would be able to have more independence and not need so much 1:1 support. This is a good thing. That doesn't mean that all specialist settings would be appropriate of course and you need to put in the groundwork to find the place that would best suit her needs.

I'm not disagreeing with any of you. However, not every parent has the energy or capacity to go to tribunal/ pursue JR and it takes time.

Schools regularly do not agree that they can make the provision in EHCP, but they are overridden by the LA and the pupil is placed anyway. I am dealing with just such a case at the moment where an EHCP was carefully written (mainly by me) detailing the very specialist provision a pupil requires. LA consulted a mainstream school who said, rightly, there was no way they could deliver Section F. LA placed the pupil anyway. Parent going to tribunal, but in meantime has been told by LA if she doesn't send child to the mainstream placement- named against ALL advice including strongly worded input from CSC- they will pursue attendance procedures.

LA is millions of pounds over-spent and trying to claw back every last penny. They have been SLAMMED by Ofsted, which has only resulted in the creation of a thousand expensive 'working groups'.

I think if they can meet her needs now, and shes happy, then at that age mainstream is fine and if they CAN meet her needs now then you would be highly unlikely to get a place at a SEN school anyway, as they are usually for children whos needs cant be met in mainstream.
If at any point in the future her needs cant be met there, then thats when you call an emergency review and discuss change of placement.
You may well find that the primary environment is fine. Its secondary that will be very challenging

I can only comment on my experience op

It became very quickly apparent once my Ds started reception that he was finding it very difficult to cope with demands of mainstream school life. Prior to this he had spent 18 months in the schools pre school with no concerns. I desperately wanted him to stay in this mainstream school as it's a wonderful village school. The school head was fantastic. Provided 1:1 support. Paid for behavioural support workers. Ed psy report. Referred to Cyps. Adapted timetable for Ds. Let him have a reduced timetable (sometimes only 2 hours a day and even that was sometimes unmanageable for him). We begged for extra funding from county, eventually got emergency funding (after threatening legal action) we got the highest tier while we went through the EHCP process. School paid for Ds to attend a private sen nursery while EHCP was processed. School even paid for autism trained staff to come into school to try and help him integrate/cope. I couldn't have asked for more from the headteacher.

During this time my Ds was very disregulated. Any friendships made in pre school we're now hanging by a thread and he chose to play alone. He was self harming and became very unpredictable and a danger to others in school, throwing items when he became disregulated etc. It very very quickly snowballed. And I mean over a few months. He was excluded twice and the head warned that he was at risk of permanent exclusion.

Long story short is that the school said they could no longer cope with his needs. Funds ran out and all local mainstream schools said they wouldn't be able to manage him either. My only choice was going to be home ed or a specialist school. Nearest specialist school is 20 miles away.

I was apprehensive and actually felt I'd really let my Ds down as I knew he would have to attend a special school. Let me tell you....

The difference in him is astronomical. He's like the little happy, carefree boy he was in pre school. He enjoys school. He smiles in school now. He has friends. He feels safe. He knows the boundaries. He can see other dc who are similar to him and can now see that he is not alone, he is not naughty, he is not a bad boy like he said he was. He is thriving and he is also learning now. He wasn't learning in mainstream. In mainstream it was very much about controlling his behaviour.

Because the staff in a special school are trained to deal with a huge range of dc with perplex needs they are just fantastic. My Ds doesn't always receive 1:1 now because now he doesn't need it. The staff don't need to give him that in the environment he is in. There is still usually 3-4 staff per 5 dc so if my Ds needs additional support for something, it is available

Don't write off other schools like I did. My hand was forced and I'm glad it was. It was without doubt the best thing for my Ds.

FWIW he's been diagnosed with autism and adhd. There was a time he couldn't handle 2 hours in mainstream with 2:1 support. He now does full days (pre covid) and he doesn't self harm anymore, he's happy and he's learning. I wish you the very best op, go and look at other schools, find out what you need to. You may even be able to get hold of a parent Governor from one of the special schools and speak to them directly?

Sorry for the epic post... good luck op

*complex not perplex

I work with SEN kids in our mainstream junior school, and we have a child exactly like what you describe. She thrived in infant school through year 2 as it was mostly play-based, but our school has been really tough for her. She has 2:1 and the most experienced TA's and pastoral care, but the demand avoidance actually makes her behaviour really challenging because she is maturing and bigger now. Her ASD isn't severe enough to "need" a special school and her SEMH isn't either (attachment issues), but our workers have reached the end of their skills and knowledge and it is too expensive to retrain them. A school with better trained TA's (one of hers was a qualified teacher at an SEN school prior to TA work so not unskilled at all) and behaviour management would be so much better for her, but her mum doesn't want her to feel "stupid" for being at a special school. Just keep in mind that her needs may change and she may "outgrow" her school in future and the process of transferring takes time.

@reefedsail The trouble is that by forcing the child to attend the unsuitable placement then you are providing evidence at Tribunal that the placement is viable.
I understand that it's scary to contemplate being pursued regarding attendance but it's probably better than giving the LA ammunition for Tribunal.
Our LA policy is that dc with EHCPs are not pursued for non attendance at all and I would hazard a guess that no EWO is going to want their name on any prosecution when an appeal is in progress.
When LA named an unsuitable placement on dd's EHCP I refused to send her. School weren't particularly happy as they were taking a hit on attendance but LA couldn't have cared less tbh. School referred to social care but SW didn't even come out accepted that the wait for Tribunal was the reason. Later complained to OFSTED regarding school and had complaint accepted by them so think they will rue the day they agreed placement for the funding rather than any hope of meeting needs.
Advise parents to contact IPSEA and SOSSEN who will help them every step of the way and a well worded letter to LA will see them backing down on attendance I'd bet.

You might be right @hiredandsqueak. IPSEA and Sendias already involved. If the parent takes that route, I suspect pupil will be out of school for a long time. That may be preferable for the pupil, but extremely difficult for the family who have no other respite.

I heard in passing that the LA went into the summer holidays with 70 pupils needing special/ist placements, and all SS/Specialists already full. In the last 6 weeks, I've had 9 consultations for a 12 place setting AFTER the setting was already full. The County has the highest rate of home schooled children in the county because so many families just give up.

Sorry for the derail OP!

Be wary of Sandiass they are usually at least part funded by the LA and can be partisan. Ours is awful I call it LA mouthpiece.
Our LA are awful as well I'm part of a parents group in a war of attrition against them. We support each other to go to Tribunal with shared knowledge and experience. Our LA lose 99% of tribunals even with barristers against unrepresented parents.
All parents with children now in their preferred placement are pursuing complaints for LGO rulings as OFSTED take note of those. We will get multiple rulings I have one already and two more being investigated. Two directors have resigned head of send is hiding in a broom cupboard( given non parent facing role after our targeted complaints) We won't stop until we get accountability.