AIBU to wonder what 'very Catholic' means?

[Graunaile2017]

I read a comment on another thread describing parents as 'very Catholic '. I'm not from the UK so sometimes miss the nuance or underlying cultural meaning of comments like this, but it seems to imply negativity. What exactly constitutes 'very Catholic' and why is it bad?

If people actually meant they were devout, strict or especially pious them they'd use those pre existing, very well understood terms

If someone is describing themselves or other persons as "very Catholic" then they mean something different. Not always, but quite often, attaching negative stereotypical presumptions around behaviour, views or lifestyle

@MrsAvocet
Yes, I mean I certainly wouldn't claim all Catholicism is like this - clearly it isn't and those of my friends who are catholic often do pick and choose and are far more relaxed, in the same way that some of my high church Anglican and Baptist friends are. I went to a sixth form at a Protestant school where I was very surprised to find that there was quite a lot of opposition to women priests/vicars there from some of my peers, which I (having always attended c of e "light" church outside of my catholic school) had never experienced before (ironically one of the opponents is now a female vicar, so things and attitudes definitely do evolve!).

I guess that some catholic schools are less overtly about religious education than others and what there is probably varies. And in any case, if you asked the Archbishop of Canterbury whether he thought officially that the idea that gay men or women would have a sexual relationship and that this could be compatible with Christianity he wouldn't proclaim himself to be super in favour (whatever his personal views, he is responsible for a church in which there is a diversity of views on this). I think if you asked Pope Benedict he would have been strongly against, but if you asked Pope Francis he would say "who am I to judge" (because he has!). Things definitely evolve and vary between leaders and probably the wider Anglican, c of E and catholic communities are often a lot more liberal than the official position and the leadership are aware of this, so keeping the church together is a bit of a balancing act that requires a bit of pragmatism whatever the denomination.

I didn't see much pragmatism at school, but it was part of a particularly conservative diocese - my experience was only intended to show that the attitudes that some associate with "strong Catholicism" are not a total myth, at least not everywhere.

@Graunaile2017, the 'fish on Friday' is still follwed here across Merseyside, Catholic or not. Although some people don't count chicken and duck as meat. Friday night chippy teas are popular.

I'd describe my MIL (now dead, born and raised in County Claire) as bery Catholic. She forced all of her children into marriage once they became sexually active. Her DH was unfaithful and he refused to go to the Priest for a penance. So she never shared a bed with him again. Because she considered it sharing the sin.

My GM tried to get me 'Churched' after I'd given birth, but I was having none of it, so I wasn't allowed in her kitchen.

My DH followed the compassionate side of Catholicism, but not the bigoted views.

You've got to realise that my generation 50+ would meet women who'd had babies forcibly removed and were in institutions similar to the Magdalena laundries. My GM had told me about the rumours of disabled and abandoned babies being experimented on, as well as other stories. The evidence was found well after her death.

It depends on the context.
For example, we have a catholic primary (and connected secondary) in town that is amazing. Both are what I would call “very catholic“, i.e. not really suitable for anyone who isn’t very sure about the catholic faith. Daily mass, reading books based on bible stories and saints, everything is centred around the catholic faith. Its not necessarily a bad thing, but certainly something to consider

Oh no, I don't disagree with you @nicenames. My DH's extended family exhibit a lot of those negative attitudes and I find it pretty distasteful. So does he to be fair. He refers to it as "rabbit's foot Catholicism". What surprised me was that you had been taught any comparative religion - or even just comparative Christianity- in a RC school, as my own, admittedly second hand, experience is very different. DH was definitely taught "you have to live like this, not like that or you will burn in hell for eternity" but not with any real explanation or theological basis for it, just "do as you are told and don't question anything". Whereas whilst there was a fair bit of hellfire in my own upbringing it was at least followed by "because it says this in such and such a Bible verse and we interpret that as meaning..."

We were both taught "We are right and they are wrong" for sure, but the difference is that I got " We believe this, they believe that and we are right" but he got "We believe this and they are wrong." I suppose I was wrong to say that the family don't know what they believe (though certain members to get quite muddled on occasion) but its rather that they don't have any idea of how it differs from what others believe.

@MrsAvocet

That makes total sense!

To be honest, the reason why Catholicism was right at school always came down to biblical literalism based rather than the bigger picture stuff that lots of Christians use to promote more liberalism (Jesus didn't judge etc) and I didn't find it that convincing myself, but I guess it was consistent!

We were taught Quakerism as the ultimate in liberality within Christianity in terms of required views on sex/relationships etc, which is probably not entirely unfair based on my knowledge of Quaker friends, though obviously that varies within Quakerism too. Draw a typical Quaker church with its standard features was always my favourite exam question - a whole lot easier to gain the exam points than e.g. orthodox Christianity!

RC education is more focussed on the sacraments and Vatican doctrine than say, bible study,is my experience.

That's really interesting nicenames as what I was always taught (at Church and at home rather than at school) was that the Roman Catholic Church was "wrong" because it was fundamentally un Biblical. Whereas we of course were "right" because we were spot on with Biblical interpretation. I don't actually believe either of those things now - well, not entirely.
I have to remind myself at times that I struggle with the Catholic Church quite a lot because of some of the people that I know within in it and that they dont represent the entire Church. In fact I know for sure that there are plenty of Catholics, including priests who would hold their hands up in horror if I revealed some of the things that have been said to and about me by certain members of my DH's wider circle of friends and family. But its quite hard not to let that colour my view when its so close, especially when added to my upbringing. I know some of my perceptions of the "very Catholic" are unfair really!

@fascinated

RC education is more focussed on the sacraments and Vatican doctrine than say, bible study,is my experience.

Yes, you managed to say what I meant better in one line than I have in 3 long posts. My DH studied the Catechism as a child but never even possesed a Bible.

I tend to think of it as being quite attached to the cultural and technical observances. That's not to say they would follow every rule perfectly, but they usually know them, are observant of most, and have a particularly Catholic set of observances.

Probably my grandmothers extended family comes to mind, they are always involved in the churches they go to, they put some emphasis on different cultural practices, have pictures of the Sacred Heart in their houses, gossip about the pope. They aren't especially knowledgable about theology or even the history of Catholicism though, and not all of them are what I'd describe as very spiritual.

Now, if they described someone as "very Catholic" they'd probably mean what is sometimes described as "RadTrad" - a radical traditional Catholic, very observant even of things like regular confession, prefer the Latin mass, etc.

Catholicism is a faith of conscience, not of rules.

Very Catholic should mean:
Tolerant, non judgemental and forgiving
Active in supporting and promoting causes that uphold the rights of the oppressed, the poor, the sick and the lonely
Recognising we are caretakers of the earth
Peaceful, and seeking to promote peace
Courageous, willing to put others ahead of yourself
Fairness and justice, not enhancing your own life at the expense of others

The number of kids you have (or don't have is irrelevant).Contraception is a matter for individual conscience. The 10 Commandments and The Beatitudes are really all you'd have to follow to 'do the right thing' - and many people follow these without being 'catholic', as many people who call themselves 'Catholic' do not. The rest is stuff and nonsense.

Some of the comments were quite offensive if you're Catholic I imagine, and probably show why schools need really good RE.

@Graunaile2017
Some of the comments here were not merely very offensive, but based on bigotry and prejudice and outright ignorance.

I disagree that improved RE is the answer.

A culture of genuine tolerance, where tolerance of religious belief itself is considered to be a civic virtue, would be very helpful instead.

If RE was ever supposed to engender that, then it has failed miserably.

Much hay has been made with the Magdalene Laundries as evidence of the cruelty of the Catholic Church.

Maybe the book 'Sinners? Scroungers? Saints? Unmarried Motherhood in 20th-Century England' by Pat Thane and Tanya Evans, would be an eye opener for those who think the problem of cruelty to unmarried mothers begins and ends with the RC Church.

I do find that for some reason it is acceptable in the UK to be quite derogatory about Catholics. It's one of the shittier aspects of living here

Unless the local school is half decent then it’s sign-in Sunday

@StoneofDestiny

Yes- and I don’t get why the minute we are less than perfect we get so much criticism that doesn’t apply to others.

If someone had said (as said upthread) some of the derogatory comments about other faiths followers of that faith would have jumped in incredibly defensively and angrily and non followers would have supported them. We are too ‘turn the other cheek’ for our own good and I am sick of being bullied this way.

Maybe the book 'Sinners? Scroungers? Saints? Unmarried Motherhood in 20th-Century England' by Pat Thane and Tanya Evans, would be an eye opener for those who think the problem of cruelty to unmarried mothers begins and ends with the RC Church.

And the fact that the Magdalene laundries were originally Protestant foundations, and originated in England -- the first one opened in Whitechapel in the 1750s. There were about 300 laundries in England alone by the late 1800s.

I really don’t want to mitigate any of the scandals in the Church at all but I read something recently that said the sciencific research behind paedophiles indicated that they could, with the correct treatment, be ‘cured’ in terms of reoffending. The Church adopted this approach as it had been widely criticised for previous approaches.

Again, I really don’t want to be an apologist for this issue but it made me think.

The Magdalene laundries were abhorrent - more so because they were done by people professing to be good. Christians, following the teachings of Christ. The church cover up in more enlightened ages, was even less forgivable.

However, the way unmarried women and the poor were treated by everyone was abhorrent - have a read up on the Workhouses/Poorhouses - the separation of children from parents, declaring the orphans and sending them off to be indentured servants, mill workers etc. The treatment they got was dire - just for being poor.

Hiding 'Shame' seemed to drive the work and behaviour of non just many Christian organisations but also government organisations - as it does is some non Christian religious communities even in the 21 Century.

the friend I'd describe as 'very Catholic' is a GP who won't prescribe contraception or refer for terminations, though I think she has to signpost patients to another GP who will. She has 7 children, and talks about not using contraception, and how her first was born 9 months after their wedding. Her children all go to Catholic schools, and she prefers that as they can be surrounded by like-minded peers. She is against gay marriage and pre-marital sex. She is part of a close-knit family with siblings, cousins, grandparents etc all nearby, and all willing to help and support, and they celebrate and observe various days and occasions at home, Saints' days for each child's name, Advent candles, etc. They are middle-class, have talented/academic/athletic children with no problems. They raise money for Catholic or religious charities (including Operation Christmas Child), and it's just generally part of their family life. She's also utterly convinced of the rightness of that way of life, that it's all because of being Catholic, how all society's problems would be better if everyone had that sort of perfect family, no loneliness/divorce/poverty/ etc if there weren't pre-marital sex, single mothers, divorced parents, and everyone just had this giant church family to look after one another. It's all kind of idealistic and smug, though, even though I can see that it's a nice way of life for those who have that and who believe in the religious bit of it all. It still ends up seeming a bit out of touch with the real world, and a lack of recognition of how lucky she was to have had all sort of privileges (not just money, though that was part of it, but support, encouragement, brains, talent) that allowed her to end up in this perfect situation - it isn't just being Catholic, but she always attributes it to that and assumes everyone else would have it too if they'd just all adopt Catholic practices. That's 'very Catholic' in my book. Not negative, necessarily, but just a different outlook to many, the idea that her religion is what has created her lovely life and her conviction that finding religion would create it for others.

@Grumblyberries

See, I think she must be also referring to the community aspects of it - school, etc. To have all of that - family support, community is because of others beliefs in the same thing. that sounds obvious but I understand where she may be coming from - I can go to a new town or city, contact teh priest, meet members of teh congregation, be invited to dinner, 'looked after' until I find my feet and generally stay within a bubble if I wish.

Doesn't always work like that tbh, and sometimes it is exhausting being a member of a parish and having that expectation on you but I can see why it works for her.

@StoneofDestiny

This is what I don't understand, Stone. For centuries the State ignored the needs of the poor communities - look at state education. The Church always works within the framework of the society it is in and simply says we can do this a different way that satisfies our social obligations to the state whilst also protecting our families.

oh I can totally see why it works for her, and I think she is lucky to be in that situation where is does - what I find a bit 'smug' is her insistence that everyone should just 'be like that' and they'd all be fine and have her perfect life too. It's more the lack of acknowledgement that she has been lucky to have been part of all this, to have had many other advantages too, and to have been the sort of person who has felt it is right and suited her and her family, if you see what I mean.

No-one in her family has had to make hard choices regarding money vs more children. She's found it easy to believe in God and the importance of the religious aspects, so has been able to get that church community without feeling hypocritical. She has always been healthy and conceived easily and according to the NFP that she's used, so has never had to worry about being prescribed contraception or needing IVF or having to decide about terminations. She met a nice husband at university, and got married early on, so no hard choices about needing to choose to leave a difficult marriage or be a single mother or anything. She is academic, talented in hobbies, sporty, etc, and has found it easy to get a good well-paying but part-time medical job. She's had the family and church support around for childcare and other help. None of her children have been gay. All that kind of thing - it's worked well for her, and she's very happy with that. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it would apply to everyone else, or that being Catholic in itself is the reason for the fact everything has worked out so well for her. But she attributes a lot to that and feels that everyone else would benefit in the same way, if they just chose to be Catholic and live by those same principles. It's not that she judges anyone; she isn't like that either, but it's more just a breezy sense of 'well everyone could do what I did'

@Grumblyberries -- is your GP friend English?

Her children all go to Catholic schools, and she prefers that as they can be surrounded by like-minded peers. She is against gay marriage and pre-marital sex.

Poor kids.

and feels that everyone else would benefit in the same way, if they just chose to be Catholic and live by those same principles

Well that’s just nut job thinking - lots of people have privileged, successful and happy lives and have no religious belief or affiliation. Likewise many religiously devout people live lives in abject poverty and misery.

@Whatscrackinmypeppers

Her children all go to Catholic schools, and she prefers that as they can be surrounded by like-minded peers. She is against gay marriage and pre-marital sex.

Poor kids.

Well she wouldn’t find that at a lot of RC schools.