AIBU to wonder what 'very Catholic' means?

[Graunaile2017]

I read a comment on another thread describing parents as 'very Catholic '. I'm not from the UK so sometimes miss the nuance or underlying cultural meaning of comments like this, but it seems to imply negativity. What exactly constitutes 'very Catholic' and why is it bad?

High church isn't catholic it's CofE

That is completely incorrect

@RealLifeHotWaterBottle

Sayitagainwhydontyou oh of course, its nothing to do with your narrow minded bigoted self. Your hateful comments are because of the school you went to. As an adult now you see fit to accord an entire religion as enablers of child molestation because you went to a school run by nuns.

I'll see your 10 years and raise you 16. I'm not bigoted against any religion and can't stand that nonsense where I see it.

The OP asked what "very Catholic" means to us. That is what it means to me. Shame, and child abuse. That is my first hand experience of devout Catholics. If you read the rest of the thread, you'll see that I'm not the only one, by a long shot.

If it helps, my abhorrence of organised religion isn't exclusive to Catholicism. Faith is fine. Church, almost universally, not so much.

I would have used the phrase "a good Catholic" to describe the type of Catholic mentioned here (not using contraception etc). But I always thought the phrase very catholic, meant someone one who had very conservative tastes, not conservative in the political sense, just very reserved.

@BonfireStarter, I have encountered more narrow-minded prejudice, as well as a more dimwit insistence on the literal truth of the Bible, in Anglican evangelical circles than I ever did among Catholics.

I was born into an Irish catholic family, in the North, but I consider myself atheist. To me ‘very catholic’ Means they have deep belief in the religion or the Jesus aspect of it. However most people I know who are practicing catholics pick & choose the rest (like pre martial sex).

I think the Catholic Church is closest to Church of England / Ireland. But certainly, from what I have learned about some Protestant churches the Catholic Church is much, much less strict. No taking Sunday as a day of rest etc. There are Protestant churches near us that don’t allow women’s hair to be cut, or them to wear trousers etc.

Although I believe it’s all a farce but each to there own.

I was taught in RE that Catholics believe the Eucharist wafer and wine are 'literally' turned into the blood and body of Christ whereas Protestants understand they are representative only ?

Any Catholics on here that enjoy a bit of blood and flesh of a weekend or was my teacher exaggerating a tad ?

[quote jolokoy]@Hollywhiskey High church is a Protestant term - basically means those Anglicans who are still a bit Catholic (in vestments, liturgy etc). By definition cannot mean very Catholic.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_church[/quote]
Try telling my mother she's a little bit Catholic and you'll have the fiery rage of a thousand suns dropped upon you and she will quite happily smite thee until you are black and blue.

Think of the most strict Catholicism (as applied to others, naturally, not herself), but with an added element of no chance to ever gain reconciliation or absolution.

I think the reason for a lot of anti catholic feeling is disconnect between church doctrine and what adherents actually believe and do. For example upthread someone said 'I don't know any Catholics who actually believe in transubstantiation' - yet that's the doctrine. I was shocked as a child of about 10 to discover that my favourite aunt and uncle were Catholic. When aunt asked why I was dumbfounded I replied honestly 'Catholics don't believe in contraception and you only have 2 children!'. She reassured me 'we don't believe in that bit'.
So all the theology, liturgy and doctrine that makes Catholicism distinct from other denominations - including the misogyny which seems stronger in Catholicism than other Christian denominations - and Onanism which seems like the gross over-generalisation of a very specific instruction - are brushed to the side by the majority of believers, leaving nothing substantial, just incense and music, which can be co-opted by any religious group.
That was a really long way to say that the hypocrisy makes people uncomfortable.

Sayitagainwhydontyou True, not what it means as a self descriptor as earlier suggested. I really hope at some point you try to overcome your prejudices, and certainly don't approach other religions (islam, judaism etc) with the same attitude

I often wonder what Jesus and God would make of all these different ways of following his teachings....

Just for accuracy, homosexuality in itself is not a sin. It is fine to love anyone, in fact it’s encouraged. It is the physical enactment of love outside of marriage that is considered sinful whether that be homosexual love or heterosexual love.
The Church does not accept civil marriages, therefore gay marriages (along with civil heterosexual marriages) are not recognised as true marriage because they were not made before God.
Plenty of gay Catholics though, just as with any other religion.

Any Catholics on here that enjoy a bit of blood and flesh of a weekend or was my teacher exaggerating a tad ?

It’s especially tasty at 8.30am Mass when it’s the first thing to have hit my stomach
Seriously though, I think that’s more of an older Catholic thing. Most Parishioners at my Mass don’t even sip the wine anymore (I certainly don’t). I only take the Host.

@RealLifeHotWaterBottle

Sayitagainwhydontyou True, not what it means as a self descriptor as earlier suggested. I really hope at some point you try to overcome your prejudices, and certainly don't approach other religions (islam, judaism etc) with the same attitude

Do you not agree that Catholic doctrine preaches that homosexual intercourse, contraception, premarital sex, divorce, etc are sins? Do you not agree that those ways of thinking disproportionately benefit straight men? All organised religion is rooted in oppression, IMO.

There is a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in the UK, much of which is tied up in issues relating to Ireland. It’s most obvious in areas with a significant proportion of people with a Irish heritage eg Liverpool and the West of Scotland.
Sectarianism might not be quite what it was but it’s still a problem. Being asked what football team you support in Glasgow is a very loaded question indeed.
There are still areas where people are very Protestant - people ‘keep the sabbath’ and preach fire and damnation. Scotland is more ‘Protestant’ than England I would say - historically the church in Scotland was more aggressively Calvinist.

The Anglican Church is quite broad - some churches are ‘higher’ than others, in that they have more elaborate ceremonies that are closer to Romish practice whereas others will be much plainer.. It’s a relatively ‘catholic’ church in that meaning of the word.
You can describe someone as being very catholic and mean they draw from quite a broad spectrum. Saying someone has catholic taste means they like a lot of things, not that they dress like the pope for example.

@sillyunmurphy there is no such thing as high church in the Catholic faith. You might be thinking of Anglo-catholic.

The whole principle of "Catholic" churches is that they are universal. The same all over. No "high" or "low" that's a Protestant thing

@SillyUnMurphy

No, High Church is a CofE concept. All of Catholicism is 'high'.

This really depresses me. Any debate on Catholicism gets turned in to an opportunity to mention child abuse. I wonder how much people did to protect those children beforehand? It is really easy to hear the insincerity. I don't know a single person who is Catholic who isn't still reeling from the stories - it has cut many of us to the core. Imagine having to look back through your life and question every single aspect of each interaction and wonder what was really going on? If there was a friend who may have experienced something? Many of the people in the Church now are people who did experience some of the horrors from the mother and baby homes in Ireland and have gone back to reclaim that which they felt the Church took from them. In RC countries the Church is so embedded into the fabric of society it is very hard at times to understand at what point your view has been shaped by it or not. And if people think secular societies don't have their own ways of achieving this they are very naive.

I would never condone the Church from the past - I don't know who would but it has always seemed to me that British society doesn't condone the Church actually - it was happy until recently to have the schools as we were a problem that Britain didn't have to worry about if the Church intervened it is Catholic people offering a different view (and we all have different views) that isn't liked here. And us standing up for ourselves, ironically.

Sometimes, I feel like just staying within the community as I cannot stomach the hypocrisy and ignorance outside.

@Love51

You forgot the Christianity - which is actually the core of it.

This is what really pisses me off - people speaking so confidently about stuff they clearly know nothing about. It is extraordinary. the amount of nonsense some people quote, really it is. Just because a Protestant mnister told you doesn't make it true FFS.

@CherryPavlova

Just for accuracy, homosexuality in itself is not a sin. It is fine to love anyone, in fact it’s encouraged. It is the physical enactment of love outside of marriage that is considered sinful whether that be homosexual love or heterosexual love. The Church does not accept civil marriages, therefore gay marriages (along with civil heterosexual marriages) are not recognised as true marriage because they were not made before God. Plenty of gay Catholics though, just as with any other religion.

But it was Christian teaching that created the laws about marriage based on their homophobic beliefs. So it's one and the same thing!

There is hardly an institution in the land where child abuse didn’t happen and in so many cases it was tolerated, facilitated and covered up by so I don’t see that the RC church should be singled out for particular criticism. It was absolutely endemic in society and I certainly hope we are more able to challenge authority and practice safeguarding in all settings now.

@serenada they also seem to ignore the child abuse in the church of england

To be honest I don’t think there’s anything at all wrong with being religious per se . I believe in God . I do enjoy feeling spiritual and I find I can feel close to God in many surprising places and times . I believe God made me and I believe that being a lesbian is something I was born as, something that I can enjoy and not something I should be celibate or alone with . I don’t think God would punish me for wanting companionship and intimacy in life .

What I don’t agree with is people using religion to hurt others, or to frighten them . That was what was done to me as a child, that’s why I said my gran was ‘very catholic’ on another thread late last night because it was used as a tool to control others . To keep your head down and do as you’re told without question, because you might go to hell for eternity . That’s what I disagree with . That’s the part that has always upset me .

To keep your head down and do as you’re told without question, because you might go to hell for eternity .

I don't think that is Christianity, that's my point. That was a kind of cultural Catholicism, I think. My parents had the same and it absolutely was a way of ruing society and used the fear of God to do it. Absolutely wrong, imv.

And your sexuality is your business. If you believe in God it is between you and her

@Love51

I think the reason for a lot of anti catholic feeling is disconnect between church doctrine and what adherents actually believe and do. For example upthread someone said 'I don't know any Catholics who actually believe in transubstantiation' - yet that's the doctrine. I was shocked as a child of about 10 to discover that my favourite aunt and uncle were Catholic. When aunt asked why I was dumbfounded I replied honestly 'Catholics don't believe in contraception and you only have 2 children!'. She reassured me 'we don't believe in that bit'. So all the theology, liturgy and doctrine that makes Catholicism distinct from other denominations - including the misogyny which seems stronger in Catholicism than other Christian denominations - and Onanism which seems like the gross over-generalisation of a very specific instruction - are brushed to the side by the majority of believers, leaving nothing substantial, just incense and music, which can be co-opted by any religious group. That was a really long way to say that the hypocrisy makes people uncomfortable.

I think I could probably put just about every Catholic I know (and that's a lot, bi Irish Catholic family) into three broad categories.

1. Those like my mother: Those who are very conservative (small c) in themselves but wouldn't press it on others, generally choosing to be as kind as possible over preaching doctrine. Not especially outspoken about abortion etc. A definite range of views but a general acceptance that other people won't necessarily share them. Do not, in my experience, believe in transubstantiation or young earth creationism. Overwhelmingly female.

2. Those like my father: Not adherents to the religion of Catholicism, but to the culture of it. My dad was born in a Gaeltacht in Ireland and faced a lot of prejudice (and violence, at several points) when coming to England to work and was also brought up knowing what his ancestors had endured over generations at the hands of the English. He would call himself Catholic to make it clear he was not Protestant. He would occasionally go to church to keep his wife and mother happy. Didn't follow any doctrine, was very happy to poke fun at Catholicism (enjoyed Father Ted and similar). Recognised the hypocrisies of the church and was critical of it, but also saw the solace it brought many of his relatives (and my mother).

3. The Catholics other Catholics tend to avoid: The ones who protest outside abortion clinics, the ones who disown gay children, the ones who follow it to the letter and shame others for not doing similar. In my experience, only a very small proportion of Catholics (or all of them, according to some people).

It's a term used to disparage other people by individuals who consider themselves and their beliefs superior.

Like all such terms, it says much more about the person using it than the targets of the accusation.

@mintich

Yes and care homes, etc