AIBU to wonder what 'very Catholic' means?

[Graunaile2017]

I read a comment on another thread describing parents as 'very Catholic '. I'm not from the UK so sometimes miss the nuance or underlying cultural meaning of comments like this, but it seems to imply negativity. What exactly constitutes 'very Catholic' and why is it bad?

@Gwenhwyfar

Someone mentioned High Church. I thought this was an Anglican thing - the section of Anglicans who behave most like Catholics, but are not actually Catholics at all.

but they don't behave like modern Catholics. more like victorians, in terms of ritual, and decoration of churches. their priests etc also like dressing up excessively and prancing about, which doesn't seem in line with Gospel values. they are definitely pre-Vatican 2, in ethos and style. i have seen retired assistant bishops, anglican wearing on the street, long cassock with purple purple piping and multiple purple buttons. just in case anyone fails to notice their status, presumably. whereas Catholic archbihops/cardinals wear an ordinary black stock and clerical collar, just like a parish priest.

Our family were 'very Catholic'. Then came WW2.

alexdgr8,

I grew up high church. I agree that it's a specifically Anglican thing.

I agree with your second sentence. The rest is hyperbole.

High Church Anglicanism has existed in various forms for hundreds of years - Laudianism, Oxford Movement etc. Like all movements it has its share of good and bad (though probably not ugly), it counts people like Desmond Tutu in its numbers, and it has a long history of social work, political action, education etc, not really acknowledged now because religion.

It's very much in decline these days.

I have a friend I’d consider very Catholic. Has a large family, comes from a large family. Goes to mass more than once a week, observes the fasting, no meat on Friday, knows all the saints, very active volunteering within her church.
Properly believes, rather than several of my other “to be on the safe side” Catholic friends, and still others who are culturally Catholic but don’t believe.

I have Jewish friends on the same spectrum, from Orthodox to Reform to “bacon butty after shul” to culturally Jewish but atheist.

I wouldn’t think “very Catholic” an insult. It means devout, rather than our usual secular focus.

I think @captaincorellispagolin's description of the 3 different levels of Catholics is accurate. I have no experience of the 3rd type! Even my very Catholic grandparents (a nun and christian brother before they got married) were closer to the first type.

Some of the comment here are really awful. Particularly the one about Catholics being unintelligent. WTF is that about?

What do people on here believe happens when they die?

Do Catholics believe they go to Heaven or Hell? Or purgatory?

Can you be a Catholic if you don't believe in those ideas?

@chomalunga I don't know what currently practicing Catholics believe. The main thing that I have been left with from my Catholic upbringing is that my dead loved ones are with God and when I die I will be with them also. I'm not religious now but this part is a comfort to me.

Hell and purgatory were not things that I was taught in school, at home, or in Mass. Perhaps I just ignored it!

"Even television - I think the only examples I’ve seen would be Father Ted and Derry Girls in recent years ... or the Magdalene Sisters/Angela’s Ashes ."

The mother in Bread? Lots of the characters on Brookside, including a priest who had an affair with a woman.

@Shayisgreat

Complete ignorance based on myths like we Ned to check with a priest about sex, etc

Bigotry. Perpetuated by other faiths, ignorance a false understanding of history and the role of faith in society. But mostly ignorance.

Even television - I think the only examples I’ve seen would be Father Ted and Derry Girls in recent years ... or the Magdalene Sisters/Angela’s Ashes .

Well, it's hardly coincidental, is it? All very 'safe', othering takes on Catholicism, which is either a joke (Dougal has never heard of the Holy Trinity, the islands off the west of Ireland are gulags populated entirely by alcoholic/miscreant/misfit priests sent there for punishment by vengeful bishops, Sr Michael is an eye-rolling fiend who's more interested in judo than Jesus, a Marian statue weeping is caused by dog pee) or in the case of the Magdalene Sisters/Angela's Ashes, an equally safe version of Catholicism as Tragic, Benighted and Impoverished/Actively Villainous .

@Shayisgreat

I grew us as a Catholic in Ireland. I don't know anybody my age (mid 30s) who is very Catholic. My experience of very Catholic people are those who are in the same generation as my grandparents.

So, in my mind, very Catholic people are those who have very old fashioned and traditional views about the role of men and women in society and that the main authority in all aspects of life is the Church. It is quite a narrow interpretation of what people can expect from their life and what is permissible in order to live a good life.

I do find that for some reason it is acceptable in the UK to be quite derogatory about Catholics. It's one of the shittier aspects of living here.

Well, if you ever fancy knowing anyone, there's an entire community of 'very catholic' people of all ages in Dublin called 'Community of Nazareth' (tag line 'a community of disciples on mission'.)

It was easy to see where it is during the marriage and abortion referendums due to the vast amount of 'no' posters.

I only came to know about it as I knew someone whose ambition was to live there.

Been a while since I lived in England but I always thought the 'anti-catholic' attitude was more about the judgementalness and hypocrisy that often seems to stand out in 'very Catholic' people' in a country where Catholicism isn't cultural.

Oh meant to say, 'very Catholic' is derogatory. It certainly isn't meant positively. Not here in Ireland anyway.

"Devout' would be a different matter.

The people I'd describe as very Catholic I meet through work (healthcare):

Have their priest on speed dial
Want to have sacrament of the sick not just at the very last minute
Want to run some of their healthcare decisions past the priest just to make sure they are in line with Catholic doctrine - they are scared of giving up treatment and often have to be convinced that it is OK
Are very involved with Catholic charities
Will pray frequently to Catholic saints that non-Catholics may not be that familiar with (over time I have picked up who most of these are)

TBH this is not that dissimilar to people I meet who are very Jewish, very Hindu, very Muslim, very anything else - they are embedded in their own religions, follow their own religious practices closely, know their religious leaders, pray to the figure or figures that are very important within that religion which may not be familiar to someone who doesn't follow it, and be heavily involved with charities linked to that religion. They may also have spritual beliefs about health that do or don't make sense to me but I have to work with so I listen and find out about them as each person is unique.

@cherryvalanc I have no doubt at all that there are people in Ireland who are very conservative in their views and that they came out in force for the abortion and same sex marriage referenda. Wasn't part of the outrage during the campaigns that these groups were being funded by American lobby groups with a conservative agenda? The general public in Ireland are quite socially liberal as evidenced by the outcomes of the referenda. Suggests that even though it is a majority Catholic country there is the desire for separation of Church and State which was not historically the case.

Yep. Went to a Catholic primary school and then a CofE secondary, where I was one of very few Catholics. I was quite often pulled up in RE to "explain why Catholics still do x or y" as if it were the only denomination whose beliefs were a bit suspect. A similar thing was not done to the Baptist, Methodist, Evangelical or Pentecostal children. Nor did it happen to the Jewish, Muslim, Sikh or Hindu children. The only other person who got similar treatment was a girl whose family were Pagan.

Still, no matter how much I tried to explain my family's beliefs and how it was, for some people, a culture rather than a religion (that got a lot of laughs from people who'd admit that they knew nothing about Catholicism until they needed to tell me I was wrong about it).
But there'd always be people ready to shout out that we were all pedophilesor IRA men or stuck at some point in the 1500s (this was in the early 2000s). This view was almost never challenged by teachers.

No one wanted to hear that a lot of Catholics would probably turn a blind eye to abortion or had bigger things to concern themselves with than homosexuals or that people quite frequently engaged in pre marital sex. Now, these things might not have been allowed, but they were done and near enough everyone knew they happened.

Well, if you ever fancy knowing anyone, there's an entire community of 'very catholic' people of all ages in Dublin called 'Community of Nazareth' (tag line 'a community of disciples on mission'.)

But those people bear as much resemblance to the average Irish Catholic as the Plymouth Brethren do to the average member of the C of E. They describe themselves as 'charismatic lay Catholics', but the language (discernment, 'offering your life to Jesus', 'charismatic renewal', 'baptism in the spirit') and ritual (holding hands aloft in prayer, Bible study, evangelising) is pure Evangelical.

It depends whether this was meant in the religious sense or If it was said about catholic tastes which would mean vanilla or very mainstream verging on reticent.

Been a while since I lived in England but I always thought the 'anti-catholic' attitude was more about the judgementalness and hypocrisy that often seems to stand out in 'very Catholic' people' in a country where Catholicism isn't cultural.

No, I think it's different. The anti-Catholic attitude in England often takes the form of disdain for their "primitive" beliefs, where Catholics are ridiculed for their "silly superstitions" and "backward views" on divorce, etc. These are all phrases I've heard directly from English people about catholic's as a group, on various occasions of living here, so I'm not putting words in people's mouths.

It's also very tied to anti-Irish sentiment in England, which is alive and kicking. The same epithets - primitive, silly, backward, etc. - are directed at Irish people in the mistaken belief that Irish = very Catholic.

In Scotland, of course, it's part of the sectarian divide that bleeds over into everything from schools to football to why many people stay off the streets on 12th July.

OP, I agree that "very Catholic" is derogatory in a British context.

Excuse the stray apostrophe in "catholic's" - it was autocorrect, your honour.

Well that was interesting. Thanks everyone, what I take from this is that non catholics or ex Catholics- as far as that is possible- are very fixated on the sexual ethics of Catholicism. I think that on here devout or 'strict insert religion of choice ' carries negative's connotations. From my experience and knowledge of Catholicism there is more to it than prohibitions on sex, the Church was a big support of trade unions for example and provided free education for the poor which helped many people leave poverty behind. Despite the paedophile tag, many priests have done great things to fight injustice.
Some of the comments were quite offensive if you're Catholic I imagine, and probably show why schools need really good RE .

@StuntPond

Well, if you ever fancy knowing anyone, there's an entire community of 'very catholic' people of all ages in Dublin called 'Community of Nazareth' (tag line 'a community of disciples on mission'.)

But those people bear as much resemblance to the average Irish Catholic as the Plymouth Brethren do to the average member of the C of E. They describe themselves as 'charismatic lay Catholics', but the language (discernment, 'offering your life to Jesus', 'charismatic renewal', 'baptism in the spirit') and ritual (holding hands aloft in prayer, Bible study, evangelising) is pure Evangelical.

Wasn't suggesting they were. Thankfully they aren't the average person in Ireland. Believe me the woman I knew had some eyebrow-raising attitude.

The attitude towards them (in Ireland) would be similar as the 'anti-Catholic' attitude in Britain. Considered odd and judgemental. Probably applied to anyone who is Catholic by some.

You're not going to get the same attitude towards Catholics in Ireland as in Britain - I'm leaving NI out if this - as Ireland is culturally Catholic.

Ireland is a very different place in its attitude than it was 30 or even 20 years ago. Not sure about Britain, been a while since I lived there (from the news it all seems to been going a bit mad!)

Ireland is a very different place in its attitude than it was 30 or even 20 years ago. Not sure about Britain, been a while since I lived there (from the news it all seems to been going a bit mad!)

I lived in the UK for 20 years and haven't long moved back to Ireland in part because the UK is turning a country I felt generally attached to and at home in into somewhere I no longer recognise. 'Mad' is putting it mildly, alas. Probably far from coincidental that I experienced far more anti-Irish comments since around the Brexit referendum than I had for years before that often by someone who then told me they had just applied for 'their' Irish passport.

@Graunaile2017

Well that was interesting. Thanks everyone, what I take from this is that non catholics or ex Catholics- as far as that is possible- are very fixated on the sexual ethics of Catholicism. I think that on here devout or 'strict insert religion of choice ' carries negative's connotations. From my experience and knowledge of Catholicism there is more to it than prohibitions on sex, the Church was a big support of trade unions for example and provided free education for the poor which helped many people leave poverty behind. Despite the paedophile tag, many priests have done great things to fight injustice. Some of the comments were quite offensive if you're Catholic I imagine, and probably show why schools need really good RE .

I think even in RME context it’s not taught . I did RE to higher (A Level) in school, won prizes for it and all sorts . Catholicism wasn’t mentioned once . I could tell you all sorts about Buddhism, Judaism, and science vs Christianity but the nitty gritty of different branches of Christianity - no . We only knew what we were exposed to in daily life; and much of that is stereotyped and negative .

I remember my teacher - a Baptist - asking me to explain to the class about being catholic and asking me to validate things she’d said . ‘Catholic’s believe xyz, have I got that right Because?’

It is a real shame as I think especially in Scotland, to understand Catholicism and Protestantism and the history behind those two religions is really very important for so much - even if doing literature studies . I remember doing Scottish poetry for advanced higher (Edwin Muir I think) and the teacher talking about the reformation and Calvinism - which was never discussed once in school, other than that one lesson . Ditto when we studied Tess of the D’Urbervilles and she couldn’t bury her son in consecrated ground . Cue a class of 18 year olds asking why not . You need to know the context to really understand these things, however it’s never taught .

But then my school only had three RE teachers; and a requirement for it to her sight once a week for 80 minutes . That was probably quite standard for Scotland (2003-2009).

Primary school you got Christianity every day of the week in some form but not about specific churches - more about the Bible and hymns . It wasn’t taught in the same way that other religions were .

Even when I worked in the NHS we had a nun admitted (Anglican) . My colleagues - some in their 30s and 40s - were bewildered when I called her ‘Sister x’, and I remember one asking, ‘why would you call her sister, why not just call her ‘Joan’?’ Treated the poor woman as if she was a leper and so many questions . Similar with someone who was a Quaker . So there is a great deal of ignorance towards religion in society, sadly .

Funny thing is that I did do RE - catholic RE syllabus at catholic school - at GCSE - and I got the highest mark in the country that year. I wasn't catholic, so I just had to learn the stuff - symbolism, differences with other denominations and sacraments and their meaning featured heavily. But literally every essay question was about discussing an ethical issue and it was basically drummed into us that we had to do a "for" and "against", then say that catholics believe [insert hardline position against abortion, contraception, sex before marriage etc, plus relevant bible passage to support it and conclude that this is the correct doctrinal interpretation for good catholics]. And we were not allowed to do proper sex education in PSE or biology, just RE, where we were told that outside marriage we had to abstain anyway and inside marriage you could use the withdrawal or rhythm method reliably (I know some couples do this reliably, but to encourage 14 year olds that this is reliable is fundamentally very dodgy and may have been responsible for the fact that there were a few teenage pregnancies in the school whilst I was there - all held up as reasons to abstain in the first instance but at least the girl didn't get an abortion). Maybe things have changed in 20 years but some of us actually did live this!

That's really interesting nicenames. My DH is from a "very Catholic" family and went to a (fairly prestigious) independent Catholic school but when I first met him I was stunned by how little his family actually knew about their own religion. I, on the other hand, was brought up in a "very, very Protestant" family with super strictly observant parents and think I have a pretty good idea about the differences between the beliefs of the denomination I was brought up in and those of both other Christian denominations and other religions. Our youth group visited other Churches, attended their services and then discussed where we agreed and where we differed, but my DH and his siblings had never done any of that. He and his siblings had been brought up to believe that Protestants were "wrong" but they didn't know about what or even how we differed. And they definitely couldn't have quoted anything from the Bible to support their views.
I'm probably older than you, and things may well have changed, but I was amazed by DH's family's lack of understanding of the doctrines they professed to live by, despite all having "good" Catholic educations. My parents were just as convinced they were right as his were of course, but at least they knew what it was they thought they were right about! One of my siblings also married a Catholic (yes, our parents were gutted) and found the same thing, and I've since met plenty of local Catholics so it may be a regional/age thing I suppose, but it is definitely not just my in laws who are like this.